99' Lakota

[jsahara24]

Here is a brief history of my machine, it has been running well (other than the occasional carb issue) since i bought it 4 years ago. Recently the quad would hesitate when i hit the throttle and the starter chain would actually slap the case, especially when it wasn't warmed up.

So, after a long weekend of riding (97 miles) i decided i needed to address the starter chain and figure out what was going on. The last night i was riding it randomly shut off and was acting weird, but then it started and I drove it home without a problem?

So I get my machine back home and the thing won't start to get it off the trailer. I take it into the garage and take the starter cover off and realize the key for the pull starter broke off and beat up the inside of the starter rotor. The starter chain is also very loose.

While this is a problem, i don't think it should keep it from running. So next I check for spark, fuel and air and everything seems to be fine but it still wont start.

So I decide to check the valve clearances, i adjusted the intake valve and the exhaust valve was good. Next I do a compression test and come back with 55psi, my manual tells me to put some oil in run the test again and I come back with the same pressure.

So at this point the manual says I have a bad head gasket or burnt valve. However since the compression didn't go up when i added the oil it means my piston, rings and cylinder are fine.

Next I felt for a leak around the head gasket and didn't feel any leaks, so I am about to tear the valves out and inspect them.

Sorry for the long post but I just wanted to get some opinions to see if I may have missed anything! Thanks for any suggestions...

Jason

[99prairie400]

It sounds an awful lot like a timing issue.

Are you sure what you heard was the starter chain slapping and not the timing chain slapping?

If the timing was off, it could cause it to pop back and strip the pull starter keyway.

It could cause it to shut off randomly.

It would certainly cause low compression reading without oil affecting it.

[jsahara24]

Originally Posted by 99prairie400

It sounds an awful lot like a timing issue.

Are you sure what you heard was the starter chain slapping and not the timing chain slapping?

If the timing was off, it could cause it to pop back and strip the pull starter keyway.

It could cause it to shut off randomly.

It would certainly cause low compression reading without oil affecting it.

thanks for the quick reply, I also considered the timing being the problem. However, the timing chain felt very tight while the starter chain was very loose. Now that i think about it though the starter chain shouldn't be spinning once the motor is running....

I have a timing light but I have never used it before, my understanding is that you unscrew the timing inspection port. Hook up the timing light to a battery and to the spark plug wire, then point the light at the inspection port and the light should come on at a specified point in the port

I am confused b/c it all happens so fast and its hard to actually see if its coming on at the right time? Am i missing something? any advice is appreciated.

Jason

[RCW]

I think you will find your compression is OK. It is only supposed to be 11.6 Kg at cranking speed.

The starter motor chain runs all the time so it should be running with the engine. But it should not be excessively loose.

What I would do is test my ignition to be sure it is functioning, because if you were spinning the engine over with the plug wire disconnected and the ignition connected you may have damaged either the coil or the igniter.

To time this engine do not use a light, but follow the instructions in the service manual for timing the camshaft where you line up the marks to be sure the chain is correctly installed. Use of a timing light can damage the coil or the igniter.

If you do not have the service manual, the site sponsor sells them to forum members at a discount, and they are critical when servicing to avoid damaging expensive components.

[jsahara24]

Originally Posted by RCW

I think you will find your compression is OK. It is only supposed to be 11.6 Kg at cranking speed.

The starter motor chain runs all the time so it should be running with the engine. But it should not be excessively loose.

What I would do is test my ignition to be sure it is functioning, because if you were spinning the engine over with the plug wire disconnected and the ignition connected you may have damaged either the coil or the igniter.

To time this engine do not use a light, but follow the instructions in the service manual for timing the camshaft where you line up the marks to be sure the chain is correctly installed. Use of a timing light can damage the coil or the igniter.

If you do not have the service manual, the site sponsor sells them to forum members at a discount, and they are critical when servicing to avoid damaging expensive components.

thanks for your response, isn't 11.6 kg/cm^2 equal to 165 psi?

I wasnt aware it was supposed to spin all the time, I am pretty sure i need to replace my starter chain. I do have a service manual and it gives me a length that the chain is supposed to be so I will be checking taht and replacing if necessary.

I have been following the service manual to check everything i have done so far, but i will go through the electronic section and do all those tests tonight.

thanks again,

[RCW]

The conversion factor is 4.8824 times the Kg per square Cm, which gives around 56.64 psi. So when you get 55 psi at cranking speed on a consumer product compression gauge you are like new!

I would be real surprised to see one of these engines actually wear out. They were built back when Kawasaki was the world's premier engine and would outlast any other brand by a factor of at least three.

[jsahara24]

I appreciate your comments, I did a little research on the conversion and thsi is what i found, am i missing somethign?

1 kilogram-force/square centimeter = 14.223 pound/square inch

That is what the Online Conversion - Convert just about anything to anything else website says the conversion factor is?

First I checked the timing by lining up the marks, it was right on. So I ended up taking the head off to see whats going on in there, my piston, rings and cylinder were in great shape. The valves had a good amount of buildup so I took the head to the dealership and their mechanic told me that the valves weren't closing all the way which wouldn't allow the engine to build up the compression it needed to fire.

So I order new gaskets and rings and im cleanin gup the valves, hopefully i can get it to fire wed or thurs night. Any advice is appreciated and I will be sure to let you knwo how it goes.

Jason

[86klf300guy]

are you doing the valve clean up or is the dealership?

i guessin the vlaves were pretty carboned up around the valve seats and not lettin them seal shut.when you did the oil in cylinder test and the comp did not change. that's a good indication of valve issues.you could have saved your self a whole lot of money by doin a cylinder leak test to see if in fact it was a valve hanging open.(cylinder leak down is useing compressed air about 4-5 psi and puttin it into the cylinder with the valves shut and listening for air to come out the intake/carb or the exhaust.that would tell you the valves are not sealin)

i would have done a complete top end decarbon with seafoam.remove the plug and put about 4 oz of seafoam in the cylinder and turnied the engine over a few times and let it set for a day.then next day start the machine clear out the seafoam i put in it let the engine get hot and then disconnect the fuel line and inject seafoam into the engine while running and let it set for a day again.start it back up gain clear it out and good to go.change the il and filter and ride on.

but in your case now the head is off etc you may want to make sure your spark is crisp blue and your carb is set correctly. right now with the carbon build up your running a tad rich in fuel. carbon is a by product of unburnt fuel so it would not hurt after you get the head bck on etc start usein seafoam every 2 or three tanks full of fuel and use mid grade fuel to stop carbon build up on the valves and piston rings etc.

i hate carbon it takes its toll on valves etc.keep us posted on your repairs -corey-

[RCW]

Oops, you are correct. I screwed up big time.

Check the valves to see that they are sealing and not staying open.

[86klf300guy]

opps im sorry i re read the post .when you clean the valves use seafoam to help you get them cleaned up and also use it in the fuel bowl of the head and the exhaust bowl/port.use a brass bristle brush to clean the valves.you dont want to scratch them up.then get sum valve lap compound and re lap the valves seats usein a low speed drill.put the lappin compond on the valve (on the anglepart)put the vlave back in the guide and attach the low speed drill to the vlave stem.start spinning the drill while movin the valve up and down slowly.then apply a little more lappin compound and do the same thing but this time go in reverse on the drill.when the valve seat and angle off the valve is shinny and new lookin its done. repeat for other valve.

when your done lappin the valves in make sure you clean them and the head off with nonchloinaded brake clean to remove any left over compound.or hot soapy water and a paint brush will do great also.that it was i use to clean up heads when i do then.air blow dry the head and put a few drops of oil in the vlave guide so you dont dry run your valves when you go to start her back up.it wouldnt hurt when you get it all back together to refill the oil pan through the top of the engine.basically puttin the oil right on top off the vlave springs and cam and let the oil return to the pan that way it lubes everything before you fire it up -corey-

[jsahara24]

Originally Posted by 86klf300guy

opps im sorry i re read the post .when you clean the valves use seafoam to help you get them cleaned up and also use it in the fuel bowl of the head and the exhaust bowl/port.use a brass bristle brush to clean the valves.you dont want to scratch them up.then get sum valve lap compound and re lap the valves seats usein a low speed drill.put the lappin compond on the valve (on the anglepart)put the vlave back in the guide and attach the low speed drill to the vlave stem.start spinning the drill while movin the valve up and down slowly.then apply a little more lappin compound and do the same thing but this time go in reverse on the drill.when the valve seat and angle off the valve is shinny and new lookin its done. repeat for other valve.

when your done lappin the valves in make sure you clean them and the head off with nonchloinaded brake clean to remove any left over compound.or hot soapy water and a paint brush will do great also.that it was i use to clean up heads when i do then.air blow dry the head and put a few drops of oil in the vlave guide so you dont dry run your valves when you go to start her back up.it wouldnt hurt when you get it all back together to refill the oil pan through the top of the engine.basically puttin the oil right on top off the vlave springs and cam and let the oil return to the pan that way it lubes everything before you fire it up -corey-

i appreciate all the great advice!

last night I attempted to remove the valves but im not sure im up to it. I picked up a valve spring compressor from harbor freight and it doesn't appear to work for a quad....
my manual and your post makes it seem pretty complicated, is it a lot harder than what I have done so far?? Would it be ridiculous to open each valve head and clean them without removing them? They seem to open up far enough to get a brush on the seat and the inside of the valve?

Or would i be better off taking it to a dealer?

Unfortuantely i have a quadding trip planned this weekend, nothign like waiting till the last minute right....

As for the seafoam stuff I have read a lot of good stuff about it on my jeepforum. I wish i would have tried that before I tore my quad apart!

Thanks again, Jason

[jsahara24]

Originally Posted by RCW

Oops, you are correct. I screwed up big time.

Check the valves to see that they are sealing and not staying open.

No problem man, I appreciate the help regardless..

and the valves aren't sealing, there is a significant amount of carbon builtup...

thx again..

[86klf300guy]

i would take the head to a machine shop they can do that job pretty quickly
and for alot less $$$$$$.

do not just clean the valve with it open for you will not clean all the carbon off the valve face that seat up in the head . it best to remove the valve and clean it.

the instructions i give seem like a alot of work but it only takes like 5 -10 minutes to do. and that removeing the vlaves and puttin them back in.

instead of usein a drill to spin the valve to lap it you can use your finger and push down on the valve face and turnin it back and forth to get the valve seat clean.or a samll sucktion cup on a stick will do the job real easy.

all you really have to do is get the valve seat and face clear of carbon build up to get her goin good again.

god luck on the valve lappin project keep us posted -corey-

[jsahara24]

So I got the valve and the valve seats cleaned up real well and put it all back together last night with new gaskets, etc... cranked it over and it started right up!

No sputtering or anything, im pretty happy wtih it...The only thing i noticed was that when i took the choke off it didn't want to idle..I rebuilt the carb since I had it running last so I probably need to tweek that a little bit, although the float level is set properly per my manual..

going to take it for a spin tonight and see what I got going on, overall i am pretty happy with the results and I certainly learned a lot!

I wanted to thank everyone for the advice....take care..Jason

[86klf300guy]

hey glad to hear you got your machine back up and runin.your welcome let us know how it goes after that first test ride .be safe and have fun-corey-

[jsahara24]

Originally Posted by 86klf300guy

hey glad to hear you got your machine back up and runin.your welcome let us know how it goes after that first test ride .be safe and have fun-corey-

Just got back from the mountains of Pennsylvania, we put 65 miles on the quads this weekend and I didn't have any problems!! It definitely ran a lot better than it has in the last year or 2...

Unfortuantely now im back in the real world at work..

but thanks again! I'll be floating around the forums...take care..

[86klf300guy]

yes yes the real world how much no fun is that lol.-

glad all is good -corey-