Help needed for small claims court

[mgmine]

0

[bross]

Is it running properly now? If it is, then I don't see the point of going to court. You asked them to fix your Prairie and though you didn't say so, I'm assuming they did. You could/should have asked for a written estimate before they started any work and only proceed to do any work after getting the OK from you. But just dropping something off and saying it isn't idling and then leaving it for 3 months? They probably should have been charging you storage as well.

I'm not trying to defend the dealer, but it doesn't take long for charges to add up especially around here where the going rate is $85/hour. 10 hours into a job and there's your $900 bill. You're looking at things arguing how long it took them and complaining about 1/2 an hour to change spark plugs??? Have you ever changed the plugs on your Prairie? Half hour sounds generous to me. Takes me longer to remove all the fenders, covers, guards, plates etc. than it does to do the actual valve adjustment on my quads. Does that mean they should charge you for that time?

Sorry, but I go back to my original question? How's your Prairie run?

[jbsmd]

Should have gotten a written estimate. Not to say you don't have a chance. Dealer probably has a book that says how long some work should take. not good to make assumptions on how long or how much something should cost. Unless you can prove the work was never done. Good luck!

[mgmine]

o

[RCW]

I am in agreement with bross. Owners have responsibility to specify limits and expectations on a written service order, and if they do not no one will ever know what was requested.

As far as small claims court goes, you will lose. The prices charged are well within the going market rates, you have no documentation that would indicate anything other than a request to "fix it," so you will look a bit foolish and burn a lot of everyone's time screwing around because you dropped the ball in the first place.

When you buy a complicated ATV you either purchase the service and repair manual and necessary tools, and do the work yourself, or pay the going rate.

By the way, if you had left me the instructions to fix it, the bill would have been considerably higher. But, I would have called and advised you of the steps and typical costs necessary once I completed the initial $200 diagnostic fee I charge everyone that just drops one off and asks me to find the problem.

[bross]

Originally Posted by mgmine

I didn't leave it there for 3 1/2 months he kept it that long. I called him many times about it and stopped in many times. Each time he had a different story. Yeah I should have gotten an estimate but when they go over the estimate it's always because they didn't expect something.This ATV has 489 miles on it and has never been abused. As far as how it runs, it doesn't idle until it's warmed up and it puffs through the air cleaner. My argument isn't that it took 1/2 hour to change the plugs it's everything combined. If the plugs are out to do a compression why charge 1/2 hour to put them back in again. Likewise for the leak down test as I asked is there something extra that needs to be removed besides the spark plug? If not then again why the . 7 hours when it takes less than 10 minutes to do the test. He did all sorts of things that I didn't ask him to do such as installing a new battery when the one in there was 2 weeks old. To add insult to injury he charged another half hour to do the job. He also changed the oil and filter charging 1/2 hour for labor plus parts so that was another $90 dollars. I had changed it three weeks prior to taking it in . His excuse was that he smelled gas in it. If he did then that should have been a tip off that there was something wrong with the fuel system and to start there or am I missing something. He cleaned the air filter another 1/2 hour labor again I had cleaned it prior to taking it in. He said it was oily. Then there is 2 1/2 hour labor to clean all the electrical connections. When I asked if he cleaned the brake light connections or headlight or starter or or or he said no they weren't a problem. How many connections are there that could effect the idle! For that matter how many connections are there this isn't a Lexus The list goes on until it ends at almost $900 dollars. I'm willing to pay for necessary work performed but I'm not willing to be ripped off that's why I'm asking for advise on how to argue the case.

The point is I don't think you have a case, so far everything you are arguing seems reasonable. :shrug: An no I'm not a dealer, affiliated with any dealer. I do as rcw suggested, buy the service manual for all our vehicles and *try* to perform all the required maintenance / repairs myself. That way I know who to yell at when it's done wrong.

[bennett_03]

ok well maybe i am a little out of fetch here, but its not that he charged you all of this time to do this. No you don't have to remove anything other than the plugs to do a leak down or compression test. That isn't the point. The point of the labor charge is for the knowledge and the tools it takes to do this. If just anyone could do it or wanted to spend the hundreds of dollars on tools, then why do you need a mechanic. Not only the money on the tools but the school that you have to endure to do this job. I am a mechanic myself not on the small engines, really have almost no idea of what it takes or their book times. There is a book time on every job that he performed which means it is fixed labor. Your argument in court would be rather pointless if you asked me.

[mgmine]

Gentleman I think you are missing the point here. If a mechanic is competent and ethical he doesn’t double and triple charge for all the necessary teardown for separate procedures this why I asked about arguing my case. For example what is necessary on a leak down test that isn’t necessary for a compression test? Simple question but I haven’t heard an answer. I’m not a rookie when it comes to mechanics having spent over 40 years working on foreign cars until I retired because of a back problem. With a car you pull the spark plug attaches the air line, pump a small amount of pressure in and watch the gauge. You don’t then put the spark plug back in put everything back together and then start all over and do the compression test. Then again put everything back together and start all over again to replace the spark plug with a new one. There is an initial time it takes to tear it down to the point the plug is out but after that you do what is necessary and then install the new plug. To bill as if each step was starting from scratch is wrong. To determine if a problem is electrical or fuel related is also pretty straight forward but then again I’m old world that’s why I asked about smelling the dip sick to see if there was a gas odor. He said he smelled gas so shouldn’t that have been a tip off? What is the rational for doing over 2 hours of electrical tests first? He said he found nothing wrong but determined that the carb was bad because it wasn’t firing on one cylinder. How fast should he have been able to determine that using what test? I know what would be done with a car without a computer in it, but what about the ATV? I must be missing something but I can’t seem to find any answers.

[86klf300guy]

i am a mechanic also and how i dio a miss fire is pull it down to the plug check spark if ok then i go to the comp test if thats ok i go to a leak down test,if that pass then to the carb or injectors.but id definitly will not put the panels etc back and then take em back off again again just for each test or a plug change!

id talk to your lawyer they will advize you of what you maybe able to do if anything at all.like sum one said you have the right to a written estimate or a phone call with how much time and money you are about to spend.thats law....

but if you went in and siad i have a miss or idleing concerns just fix no matter what getit done then they will take advantage of that and do what is needed to make it run correct.

grant it takeing the panels etc back off numerous times is dumb founded but like rcw i think said if you are goin to own a machine like that its best to invest in a manual.you have the mechanical knowledge its pretty easy to repairs these machine if you have a book.

you are goin to get many different replays on this but get a hold off the lawyer get your paper work phone records and take and sit down and have a talk.you will prolly get told you have no case ,all you can do is tell 10 friends not to go there for service if your that displeased with the work and maybe try being nice to the manager and maybe he will cut you a break-corey-

[okieduc104]

Originally Posted by mgmine

Gentleman I think you are missing the point here. If a mechanic is competent and ethical he doesn’t double and triple charge for all the necessary teardown for separate procedures this why I asked about arguing my case. For example what is necessary on a leak down test that isn’t necessary for a compression test? Simple question but I haven’t heard an answer. I’m not a rookie when it comes to mechanics having spent over 40 years working on foreign cars until I retired because of a back problem. With a car you pull the spark plug attaches the air line, pump a small amount of pressure in and watch the gauge. You don’t then put the spark plug back in put everything back together and then start all over and do the compression test. Then again put everything back together and start all over again to replace the spark plug with a new one. There is an initial time it takes to tear it down to the point the plug is out but after that you do what is necessary and then install the new plug. To bill as if each step was starting from scratch is wrong. To determine if a problem is electrical or fuel related is also pretty straight forward but then again I’m old world that’s why I asked about smelling the dip sick to see if there was a gas odor. He said he smelled gas so shouldn’t that have been a tip off? What is the rational for doing over 2 hours of electrical tests first? He said he found nothing wrong but determined that the carb was bad because it wasn’t firing on one cylinder. How fast should he have been able to determine that using what test? I know what would be done with a car without a computer in it, but what about the ATV? I must be missing something but I can’t seem to find any answers.

Save your money and pay the shop, if you hire a lawyer the lawyers will make more than the shop.........then you will more than likely pay the shop. I bet you had to pay the shop to get your machine, didn't you? If you took it to a dealer, maybe he will give you a good trade in on a new trouble free machine with a warrenty, maybe not.

[stickboy]

Originally Posted by mgmine

Gentleman I think you are missing the point here. If a mechanic is competent and ethical he doesn’t double and triple charge for all the necessary teardown for separate procedures this why I asked about arguing my case. For example what is necessary on a leak down test that isn’t necessary for a compression test? Simple question but I haven’t heard an answer. I’m not a rookie when it comes to mechanics having spent over 40 years working on foreign cars until I retired because of a back problem. With a car you pull the spark plug attaches the air line, pump a small amount of pressure in and watch the gauge. You don’t then put the spark plug back in put everything back together and then start all over and do the compression test. Then again put everything back together and start all over again to replace the spark plug with a new one. There is an initial time it takes to tear it down to the point the plug is out but after that you do what is necessary and then install the new plug. To bill as if each step was starting from scratch is wrong. To determine if a problem is electrical or fuel related is also pretty straight forward but then again I’m old world that’s why I asked about smelling the dip sick to see if there was a gas odor. He said he smelled gas so shouldn’t that have been a tip off? What is the rational for doing over 2 hours of electrical tests first? He said he found nothing wrong but determined that the carb was bad because it wasn’t firing on one cylinder. How fast should he have been able to determine that using what test? I know what would be done with a car without a computer in it, but what about the ATV? I must be missing something but I can’t seem to find any answers.

The issue is not that they are charging you to take the panels off, put them back on, take them off again, etc. They are charging you book rates for doing the tests. Those book rates don't coincide with what other tests you have done or what has already been removed to perform those tests. They are looking in their shop manuals, and those manuals are saying .7 hours for a leakdown test, .5 hours for replacing spark plugs, 2 hours for rebuilding carbs, etc. The shop rates typically suggest the time it takes to do those from a fully assembled vehicle. The problem is that many shops bill like this.

The problem with diagnosing issues is that there is no clear cut place to begin. He may not have smelled the dipstick right away because he was busy checking to see if the ignition system and compression were all within specs. At no point in that process do you have to check the oil (honestly, oil is not something I would even think to look into unless I knew there was a carb problem or a definite engine issue). When the ignition and compression checked out, the next logical step would be to check the carburetors. When the carbs were rebuilt and there were still problems, the next step would be to check the valves (and yes they can cause idling issues). It sounds to me like the mechanic eliminated the easiest items to rule out first. And believe it or not, that could have worked out in your favor, especially since replacing a plug is easier than rebuilding a carb. I know I would be pretty ****ed if I found out a shop assumed my carburetor was the problem only to find out it was only a fouled plug.

Honestly I don't think you have a good case here. The shop is going to bring their shop manuals in, show the rate recommended for doing each of the jobs that they did, and explain why they did it. The problem is that you didn't go in with a good understanding of the work that was going to be done.

On the other hand, you said that the ATV still doesn't run quite right. That being the case, you could argue that they didn't complete the work you brought it in for. You might have to fight pretty hard for that, but you may be able to go on that premise. Other than that, you really don't have a case and like everyone else said, you will most likely lose.

[RichLockyer]

Originally Posted by mgmine

If a mechanic is competent and ethical

Incompetent and unethical does not always mean legally in the wrong.

What was the reason that it took 3-1/2 months to do the repairs? Were there communication issues? Did you document every phone call?

Honestly... you don't have a legal leg to stand on without some serious documentation, and even with that, it's shaky.

[northernman]

The only thing the shop did wrong in my opinion, is have it so long.
Should have returned it to you within a week, unlees he said we are booked solid, and will not get to it for months, and then you chose to leave it there anyways.
The charges all seem to add up, its hard to diagnose issues sometimes.

You can try your hand in court, but if you lose, he might also sue you in return for interest, and his legal fees, and time away from his shop to go to court, and in the end you could be paying the bill plus another $1,000 to $2,000.
Its your call.