Beware of auto oil and additives

[JimmyD]

Originally Posted by RichLockyer

It's not that there's anything special about it being "V-Twin" oil... it's that it's a 20w50.

It's not THAT big of a deal with the Vulcans, because they are liquid cooled.
Traditional air-cooled V-twins tend to run hot in the rear cylinder, and require a heavier oil.

10w40 is actually fine for the Vulcan up to ambient temps in the 100's.

Oh yeah, I totally agree. Its just another lesson in "creative marketing", selling the same product for a different price point. I've seen 20w-40 "Motorcycle" oil and 20w-40 "Vtwin" oil on the same shelf from the same manufacturer.

[kcarlson1979]

Another point that you all seemed to miss is the fact that most metric cruisers have oil dipped clutch packs, and additives may also prematurely wear the clutch under severe conditions by causing the clutch to slip. Just thougtht that I'd add my two cents in there...

[SilverEagle]

Oil, politics, gun control and religion always invite to such interesting discussions I wouldn't be without............it would be a boring world.

[Deeppurple52]

I lived in Saudi Arabia for three years. It was not unusual to see a vehicle with the original oil filter and oil after many years. They just add a little when needed. If your average Land Cruiser can go years and many miles without an oil change, it is unlikely my bike is going to wear out it's oil in 3-4000 miles! A coworker has run Penzoil in all his bikes for decades with zero problems. He sold his Wing with 129,000 miles on the clock and still purring like a kitten. The oil scare threads are greatly exaggerated.
I have run a variety of automobile oils in my bikes with no issues. Living overseas, you buy whatever is available, pour it in and keep on riding.

[Deeppurple52]

Sleeping.... I can answer that. The Consumer Report taxi cab study found that oil additives provided exactly zero benefit and are a waste of $$$. I agree. Your V-twin motorcycle is a slow revving, relatively low performance engine. There is far too much worry about what type oil or additive we are runing. With the average rider only going a couple of 1000 miles a year it is unlikely that any oil would be much an issue.

[Plato]

Originally Posted by Tom_E

...I'm not sure how long the "energy saver" additive packages have been the norm, but there do seem to be some clutch issues related to it's use. Most of those seem to be on bikes with fairly marginal stock clutches (like 1500/1600 non MS Vulcans). Run what you want. If the clutch slips, Barnett sells very good clutch components that won't.

There are still a few auto oils without the "energy conserving" stamp -so going with them gets the lower cost and should dodge the problems some report.

Most of the 10W-40 oils as well as some 10W-30 with the "High Milage" label (just scanned a few M1 jugs today at work ). Not to mention the Rotella products which would be my choice in a low cost grab and go oil.

BTW, I love to see well aged oil threads come back to life 7/05

[uechi kid]

I don’t get it. We spend thousands and thousands of dollars on accessories for our bikes then we are worried about a few bucks when it comes to the kind of oil we buy for our bikes. I don’t think so. I say “use the best oil you can find designed for wet clutch motorcycles”. Come on, it’s your engine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!__________________

[jimboy61]

Originally Posted by JK591

OK, here goes another can of worms (oil?). Motorcycle oil IS different than automobile oil in one major way. Most modern motorcycles use the same engine oil for their transmissions. (Older Triumph and BSA's had split cases or "pre-unit" engines.) Transmission gears are WAY harder on the oil than the combustion mechanics - i.e., piston, rings, etc. The meshing of the gears tend to "shear" the oil molecules and for that reason motorcycle oil has additives to inhibit that shearing process. Auto oil does not. Therefore, auto
oil breakdown happens really fast. True, you could save a few bucks a quart
by using it and changing your oil every five hundred miles, but that upsets those of us who may be ecologically minded. (Incidently, in Europe the average motorist goes around 8-10,000 miles between oil changes for reasons of economics and ecology and tend to view us as wasteful with our manufacturer's suggestion of 3-5000 here in the colonies.) For the longest time cycle oil also had to be formulated for air-cooled engines and still has ingredients for that, even though many/most bikes are liquid cooled. Also, beware of oil additives. Slick 150, STP, Marvel Oil etc. changes the chemical make-up of your oil - for the worse. If any of these additional additives were necessary, the various oil company chemists would already be doing it. (For just a few pennies.) Don't play junior chemist and undo their many years of
research in their million dollar laboratories. Incidentally, I really don't work for an OEM, and dislike paying the extra bucks for "special" oil and filters, but it makes a lot of sense to buy the best for my engine, and scrimp on my chrome
do-dads.

I wouldnt exactly say frequent changes are ecologically wasteful if it gets recycled. It does get to be used for a new purpose.

[jimboy61]

Originally Posted by SilverEagle

Oil, politics, gun control and religion always invite to such interesting discussions I wouldn't be without............it would be a boring world.

amen

[dinoSnake]

Originally Posted by woodchucks800

These oil an filter threads are always nice. I asked the other day for someone to show me proof of a oil/filter related failure to there motor an no one responded.

Oil Filter # - RiderForums.com Community

RiderForums.com Community - View Single Post - 2003 Kawasaki Mean Streak Oil Filter Conversion

FWIW...

[adds]That Riderforums member, Kowalski, has just joined this forum! (if it's the same Kowalski)

http://www.kawasakimotorcycle.org/fo...66-post14.html

If it is maybe we can get him to tell his story firsthand

[dinoSnake]

Originally Posted by uechi kid

I don’t get it. We spend thousands and thousands of dollars on accessories for our bikes then we are worried about a few bucks when it comes to the kind of oil we buy for our bikes. I don’t think so. I say “use the best oil you can find designed for wet clutch motorcycles”. Come on, it’s your engine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!__________________

+5000

[jeff900classic]

I've looked at the web sites and everyones post here. I was planning on using castrol 4T (dino) oil and purolator pure one filter for my first service on my 900 classic,but I can't find the oil! Wal-mart,K-Mart,NAPA,Auto Zone, Advance Auto,Car Quest, And the four motorcycle dealers in town.Does anyone use it? just wondering since none care it? Any ideas for me? I'm not paying dealer prices for their oil, and don't think I want diesel oil either. I would appreciate ya'lls help. Thanx Jeff

[RichLockyer]

Originally Posted by dinoSnake

Oil Filter # - RiderForums.com Community

RiderForums.com Community - View Single Post - 2003 Kawasaki Mean Streak Oil Filter Conversion
FWIW...
[adds]That Riderforums member, Kowalski, has just joined this forum! (if it's the same Kowalski)
http://www.kawasakimotorcycle.org/fo...66-post14.html
If it is maybe we can get him to tell his story firsthand

Talk about misinformed!

Too much pressure causing them to go into bypass... oh no... too LITTLE pressure so the filter won't pass the needed amount of oil into the engine.
Okay, which is it?
On a cold start, the Vulcan can reach 100psi. Spec is 50psi at 2,000rpm, and you need 15psi at idle. Lower than 15psi and your idle is too low and the cams aren't getting proper lubrication.

Okay... so 15-50psi is as much or MORE than is typical on a car engine. That argument just got blown out of the water.

Oil pressure too high forcing the filter into bypass? Perhaps, but if that were the case, then after 6,000 miles, my used oil analysis would show unacceptable levels of insolubles.
Also, the statement "Oil pressure too high forcing the filter into bypass" shows a basic lack of understanding of how an engine's oiling system and the filter bypass actually work.
The oil filter's bypass is commonly rated at around 10psi. If the oil pump is putting out 50psi, that does NOT mean that the filter will be in bypass. The filter is not (or should not) be the most restrictive point in the oiling system. The bypass functions based only on DIFFERENTIAL pressure across the filter media... has nothing to do with the actual pressure reaching the engine.
The filter's bypass is there ONLY to protect the filter media from damage. If the filter becomes clogged with dirt, it will also go into bypass.
Now IF the filter media were unable to pass the oil needed by the engine, then the filter indeed WOULD go into bypass... and would remain in bypass until the engine and oil warm up and the oil becomes thin enough to pass through the filter media.... but if 10psi is all it takes to open the bypass, and the pump is pumping out 50psi at 2,000rpm, I don't care if the filter media is made of concrete... that filter WILL pass adequate oil to lubricate the engine.

My money on what happened to Kowalski's engine, if I were to make an educated guess based on his comments and the damage?

1 - He had his idle set too low to make his engine "sound like a Harley". Idle speed spec is 950 +/- 50. Lower than 900 and there is no guarantee that adequate oil pressure is being maintained at idle.

2 - Starting the engine and immediately goosing it to hear the pipes. I see this QUITE often, and it always makes me cringe.

3 - Air was trapped in the oil filter and/or the oil pump lost it's prime. There have been more than a few posts from people complaining of an FI light after an oil change, and other than the cases where they also lowered the idle, the problems have been solved by "cracking" the oil filter and allowing the air to escape.

4 - Possibly a defective filter.

We've got ONE data point... anecdotal evidence with nothing to back it up... claiming a problem.

[dinoSnake]

Well, like I said, "FWIW"

Hopefully we can get a full account in his own words. I have no idea whatsoever what exactly happened, just his report posts.

[Kowalski]

I'll give everyone the full rundown, soon, on what happened so everyone running their bikes on Auto oil, and car filter can Bash! the ever-lovin' hell out of my experience Again. The 1158 dollars wasn't enough pain for me. I like to come on these forums and have alcohol and salt rubbed in my wounds.

I'll try to get it typed up tonight.

[dinoSnake]

Originally Posted by Kowalski

I'll give everyone the full rundown, soon, on what happened so everyone running their bikes on Auto oil, and car filter can Bash! the ever-lovin' hell out of my experience Again. The 1158 dollars wasn't enough pain for me. I like to come on these forums and have alcohol and salt rubbed in my wounds.

I'll try to get it typed up tonight.

Thanks! And welcome to the forums.

Please excuse - I certainly did not want to sound like I was bashing you. I actually look forward to your tale so that I can learn and understand the situation.

As for myself I am with uechi kid's opinion - I use exclusively OEM filters with certified bike oil. Why use anything else after you've spent so much money on the bike in the first place?

[Deeppurple52]

Changing oil at 2500 miles? That must be for those that only ride 2000 miles/year. Synthetic does nothing for you at that, or any other, change interval IMHO. There certainly is a lot of chatter about oil here. Much of it is myth at best. If it makes you happy, change it. Your lightly used, slow revving, relatively low performance V-Twin will love you for it.... or maybe it won't notice. Enjoy the ride.

Rich... You are the man! I agree 100%.. Myth and ignorance run rampant on this subject. Having lived a relatively long time and driven/ridden a whole lot of miles, I have yet to experience any oil related problem. Changing at 2000 or 5000 will make zero difference.

[Kowalski]

Here it is. Please forgive the long post, but it's a long story.

When I bought my bike I started looking at all the info on the numerous forums and concluded, (even though it didn’t make sense to me) that most people use auto oil and a cheap filter on their bike. I had noticed the oil that was in the bike was getting old and the clutch wasn’t grabbing real good so I did some research and decided to go with some good 10w40 Dino and stock filter. The clutch felt better instantly but quickly faded to where it had been before (about 1000 miles worth of driving). So I decided to go with Rotella oil because it had been talked up a lot and numerous people had said that their clutch felt better (more solid) after the switch to Rotella. Along with that oil change I used the SuperTech filter as well.

About 500 miles into that change I started to notice the bike shifting like SH!T. It would crunch into gear sometimes and it was increasingly hard to shift from gear to gear (I figure the plates were sticking together).

About 750 miles into the Rotella and SuperTech I decided to have my bike dyno’ed at a local shop. So I warmed the bike up, it was about 37 degrees that morning, and headed out. 1 mile from my house I noticed my bike hitting a funny lick. The exhaust sounded off somehow. I ended up stopping and I could hear all of this rapping coming out of the engine. It was the Metal on Metal kind of rapping and ticking. I was close to the guys shop so I limped the bike over there and let him get a good listen. I figured since he’s a motorcycle mechanic, he could give me some input (I work on a lot of cars, but was new to bikes).

We started going back and forth trying to figure out what could make that noise and affect the way the exhaust sounded at the same time. He quickly asked me what kind of oil and filter that I used because he saw the Blue filter under the bike. I proudly told him what I was using and he nearly SH!T. Hell, you would have thought that I was talking to my father! He said he had been riding and working on bikes for God knows how long, and he would never put anything in his bike that wasn’t recommended for it, especially the filter!

That night I went to a non Kawasaki dealership for some new gloves and decided to ask the shop manager about my problem. The FIRST question he asked me was “What kind of oil and filter are you using?” I got the same reaction from him as I had before. (The pattern started to develop).

So I changed the oil and filter back to stock Kawasaki and noticed that the stock filter has more holes in the top than the SuperTech, which, I would ^^^ume, would flow more oil. After letting it warm up the noise STOPPED! Shheewww!!! I was so happy, and thought that I had dodged a major bullet. A day later, the noise came back.

I went to the place that would eventually fix my bike and talked to them about it. The shop manager asked me One Question, and you all know what it was. “What kind of Oil and Filter have you been using?”

In the end and $1158 later, all of the lifters in the front cylinder had to be replaced because of oil starvation. When I come on these boards I’m offering my opinion just like all the people that offer their opinion about using auto oil and filters. But, I get nailed for it. I never went on anywhere and said people are idiots if they use auto oil and filters. I just gave my opinion of the matter. But there are sure a lot of people that treat me like I’m an idiot when I give my humble opinion.

Anyway, that’s my story and I’m sticking with stock oil. Not to mention that my clutch feels better than it Ever did on the auto oil.

[KyBoy]

Use the oil that you are comfortable with.

I have noticed, if you want a difference of opinions, discuss religion,politics
and motor oil.
Every time I see a new post about oil and filters , I smile because I know
where it's going!

[Plato]

Originally Posted by Kowalski

...When I bought my bike I started looking at all the info on the numerous forums and concluded, (even though it didn’t make sense to me) that most people use auto oil and a cheap filter on their bike. I had noticed the oil that was in the bike was getting old and the clutch wasn’t grabbing real good so I did some research and decided to go with some good 10w40 Dino and stock filter. The clutch felt better instantly but quickly faded to where it had been before (about 1000 miles worth of driving). So I decided to go with Rotella oil because it had been talked up a lot and numerous people had said that their clutch felt better (more solid) after the switch to Rotella. Along with that oil change I used the SuperTech filter as well.

About 500 miles into that change I started to notice the bike shifting like SH!T. It would crunch into gear sometimes and it was increasingly hard to shift from gear to gear (I figure the plates were sticking together).

About 750 miles into the Rotella and SuperTech I decided to have my bike dyno’ed at a local shop. So I warmed the bike up, it was about 37 degrees that morning, and headed out. 1 mile from my house I noticed my bike hitting a funny lick. The exhaust sounded off somehow. I ended up stopping and I could hear all of this rapping coming out of the engine. It was the Metal on Metal kind of rapping and ticking. I was close to the guys shop so I limped the bike over there and let him get a good listen. I figured since he’s a motorcycle mechanic, he could give me some input (I work on a lot of cars, but was new to bikes).

We started going back and forth trying to figure out what could make that noise and affect the way the exhaust sounded at the same time. He quickly asked me what kind of oil and filter that I used because he saw the Blue filter under the bike...

So in the beginning your bike was already having clutch problems and somehow you figured the oil was "getting old". Then you continued on without addressing that problem and did an oil change.

Then the original problem was still there so you did another oil change and went with Rotella and a ST filter. Then things get really bad and with major damage done you and your mechanic conclude all the problems musta been due to the ST filter ? If an oil filter was to blame, then from this story I could just as easily conclude the damage was present before the ST was installed.

When a machine fails and a mechanic is charging you big bucks to repair, he obviously needs to give you some "reason" for the failure.

Do you still have that ST filter for study ? Those of us with mucho miles using auto oils and ST filters are naturally gonna look at this story with some suspicion -there should be multiple cases of blown Vulcans if the conclusions offered were true