Beware of auto oil and additives

[Kowalski]

I know and You know, Plato, that different types of oils can make a Wet Clutch act very weird. That was just part of the story. No, I don't have the filter for study because I got my masters degree in Using The Wrong Stuff when I spent $1158 dollars on having my engine fixed.

I never said that the problem could not have been there in the beginning. This all started over at Riderforums because some poor soul was asking questions about oil and the thread was littered with the same old info. I merely added my Opinion and got Lit Up for it. I don't need to prove an opinion.

Remember, opinions are like a$$holes, everybody has one.

I'm tickled pink that Lots of riders with Lots of miles use the auto oil and cheap filters with no ill results. But, that guy over at Riderforums needed to see another side to the story. Thats all I did, and I had my head ripped of for it.

Maybe my bike was full of marbles, or maybe it was full of little Gremlins that sabotaged me. I don't know, and it doesn't matter. 4500 miles were done on stock oil and filters. Then I changed. Then the problems started, and got worse. Then the engine trouble started. I say, Where theres smoke, theres Fire. Now, I use stock, again.

I'll guarantee this - If anything happens to my bike using stock oil I will report it here and on Riderforums, without reservation.

[RichLockyer]

Originally Posted by Deeppurple52

Changing oil at 2500 miles? That must be for those that only ride 2000 miles/year. Synthetic does nothing for you at that, or any other, change interval IMHO.

I have to disagree with that.
Cold flow performance and film strength at higher temperatures contribute to reduced engine wear over the long haul.
We tend to focus on shear stability, which is no doubt important, and that isn't much of an issue on 2k/3k change intervals, but beyond that it DOES rear it's ugly head:
http://personal.linkline.com/rlockyer/oil/oil.xls
Amsoil and M1 held their 50wt grade at 2k, and M1 had just dropped into the 40wt range at 6k. All of the other products, INCLUDING M1 15w50 and Royal Purple 20w50 (automotive) had dropped to 30wt in 2k.

But even if you are changing every 500 miles, it's the interval that's a waste of money. The reduced engine wear from synthetics is still present on those cold starts after the bike has been sitting for a week, or for the time that you're running your "winter" 10w40 and Ma-Nature throws a weekend of 100+ temps at you.

[RichLockyer]

Originally Posted by KyBoy

Use the oil that you are comfortable with.

I have noticed, if you want a difference of opinions, discuss religion,politics
and motor oil.
Every time I see a new post about oil and filters , I smile because I know
where it's going!

The difference is, there is no science behind religion and politics.

[bluestringer]

Originally Posted by Kowalski

Here it is. Please forgive the long post, but it's a long story.

When I bought my bike I started looking at all the info on the numerous forums and concluded, (even though it didn’t make sense to me) that most people use auto oil and a cheap filter on their bike. I had noticed the oil that was in the bike was getting old and the clutch wasn’t grabbing real good so I did some research and decided to go with some good 10w40 Dino and stock filter. The clutch felt better instantly but quickly faded to where it had been before (about 1000 miles worth of driving). So I decided to go with Rotella oil because it had been talked up a lot and numerous people had said that their clutch felt better (more solid) after the switch to Rotella. Along with that oil change I used the SuperTech filter as well.

About 500 miles into that change I started to notice the bike shifting like SH!T. It would crunch into gear sometimes and it was increasingly hard to shift from gear to gear (I figure the plates were sticking together).

About 750 miles into the Rotella and SuperTech I decided to have my bike dyno’ed at a local shop. So I warmed the bike up, it was about 37 degrees that morning, and headed out. 1 mile from my house I noticed my bike hitting a funny lick. The exhaust sounded off somehow. I ended up stopping and I could hear all of this rapping coming out of the engine. It was the Metal on Metal kind of rapping and ticking. I was close to the guys shop so I limped the bike over there and let him get a good listen. I figured since he’s a motorcycle mechanic, he could give me some input (I work on a lot of cars, but was new to bikes).

We started going back and forth trying to figure out what could make that noise and affect the way the exhaust sounded at the same time. He quickly asked me what kind of oil and filter that I used because he saw the Blue filter under the bike. I proudly told him what I was using and he nearly SH!T. Hell, you would have thought that I was talking to my father! He said he had been riding and working on bikes for God knows how long, and he would never put anything in his bike that wasn’t recommended for it, especially the filter!

That night I went to a non Kawasaki dealership for some new gloves and decided to ask the shop manager about my problem. The FIRST question he asked me was “What kind of oil and filter are you using?” I got the same reaction from him as I had before. (The pattern started to develop).

So I changed the oil and filter back to stock Kawasaki and noticed that the stock filter has more holes in the top than the SuperTech, which, I would ^^^ume, would flow more oil. After letting it warm up the noise STOPPED! Shheewww!!! I was so happy, and thought that I had dodged a major bullet. A day later, the noise came back.

I went to the place that would eventually fix my bike and talked to them about it. The shop manager asked me One Question, and you all know what it was. “What kind of Oil and Filter have you been using?”

In the end and $1158 later, all of the lifters in the front cylinder had to be replaced because of oil starvation. When I come on these boards I’m offering my opinion just like all the people that offer their opinion about using auto oil and filters. But, I get nailed for it. I never went on anywhere and said people are idiots if they use auto oil and filters. I just gave my opinion of the matter. But there are sure a lot of people that treat me like I’m an idiot when I give my humble opinion.

Anyway, that’s my story and I’m sticking with stock oil. Not to mention that my clutch feels better than it Ever did on the auto oil.

LMAO...........the Kawasaki filter is crap. You don't really think Kawasaki makes their own filters do you? The SuperTech is a much better filter.

[Plato]

Originally Posted by Kowalski

I know and You know, Plato, that different types of oils can make a Wet Clutch act very weird. That was just part of the story. No, I don't have the filter for study because I got my masters degree in Using The Wrong Stuff when I spent $1158 dollars on having my engine fixed...

I'm tickled pink that Lots of riders with Lots of miles use the auto oil and cheap filters with no ill results. But, that guy over at Riderforums needed to see another side to the story. Thats all I did, and I had my head ripped of for it.

Maybe my bike was full of marbles, or maybe it was full of little Gremlins that sabotaged me. I don't know, and it doesn't matter. 4500 miles were done on stock oil and filters. Then I changed. Then the problems started, and got worse. Then the engine trouble started. I say, Where theres smoke, theres Fire. Now, I use stock, again...

I'm not trying to take your head off here, but the info posted here so far has not even begun to convince me a ST filter caused this problem.

Was this bike new to you ?
If not, was it purchased from an individual or dealer ?
Did you get any records of its history and maitenence ?
Was there a warranty claim involved with this rebuild ? -I'm sure you realize in a major warranty claim the first thing they're gonna do is look for their "out". Under such circumstances I would not be surprised to hear all the shop mechanics point to the non-Kawasaki filter and faint dead away

A bike running stock OEM oil and filter should not be having clutch issues at 4500 miles IMO -and if as you mention the clutch is not "grabbing" at such an early milage interval then red flags should go off right then about the whole condition of a used bike just purchased.

As you say, opinions are something we all have -you're just getting mine here

I've got over 20k using Rotella-T 5W-40 and M1 15W-50 along with SuperTech filters, and have done numerous Blackstone test to confirm all is fine with this combo. Your Milage has obviously Varied

P.S. We still want pics of even your NON-SuperTech running bike

[Kowalski]

Bluestringer I never said that I thought Kawasaki made their own filters, nor do I put words in peoples mouthes. I've seen a website that took the Kawasaki filter apart and compared it to others, and their conclusion was it was a Good filter. The website was in some thread over on Riderforums.

Plato (I like that name by the way) It was bought used, records were included, but bike was out of warranty. The whole clutch thing is just a quirk that I've noticed and that I've been told about with motorcycles when their oil reaches the end of its life span. It just lets the plates slip more before they engage (and I've heard that this oddity is more pronounced on hydraulic clutch bikes). Every time that I change the oil I always notice that the clutch feels tighter.

To be honest I would rather stop talking about the whole thing. I just noticed that my post from Riderforums got brought up and I figured I would speak up. Plato, thanks for being civil about the whole thing. You are better than others I've encountered. Heres a couple of pics.

[Plato]

Originally Posted by Kowalski

...To be honest I would rather stop talking about the whole thing. I just noticed that my post from Riderforums got brought up and I figured I would speak up. Plato, thanks for being civil about the whole thing. You are better than others I've encountered...

First off, Nice Bike !!!

Okay your last comments here on old oil are true in my experience, but what threw me was saying the clutch wasn't grabbing. In my experience when the oil is fresh and new the shifting is easier -but I've not notice any problems with the clutch not grabbing on a warmed up bike using Rotella or M1 15w-50 regardless of miles.

Just to get as much info as possible on this...

Is that Meanie carbed or FI (sorry, I'm a Nad guy -so I can't tell at a glance ). Looks like you have an aftermarket air mod there (I like it btw) -but was that on this bike before the unfortunate breakdown ? Same questions on the pipes ?

And I believe someone else asked about the idle setting ? On my Nomad the idle setting needed adjustment early on just after breakin, but has been a non issue since then -should be around 950-1000rpm on most Vulcans. If it was set low then you would have some serious oil pressure issues going on -its a problem becuase most of us who fiddle with the pipes are looking for that Harley rumble you get at slow idle. Buying a used bike does have some risks simply becuase you can't account for how it was setup and used.

And just for the record, although I don't think your conclusion about auto oil and filters is correct -I would probably take your approach to these things after a major repair like you suffered. Might even yank those aftermarket air mods off

[KyBoy]

Originally Posted by RichLockyer

The difference is, there is no science behind religion and politics.

Sure there is.
scientology ,American Political Science Association...

[2WheelFun]

Originally Posted by Tom_E

Reference to Rotella T synthetic and motorcycle useage:
Shell Rotella T: Information and Much More from Answers.com

- Submit a Question Type in "motorcycle"

Thanks for the links, Tom!

[fritzi93]

I love these contentious threads.

As to the claims for motorcycle oil...hype. Look here:

Testing Motorcycle Oil

A couple salient points:

1) Motorcycle oils are prominently displayed in parts departments at stealerships. Why?...wait for it...price point, that's why. It's a cash cow.

2) There's remarkably little difference between motorcycle-specific oil and auto oil. An excerpt from the link above:

The results of these tests seem to support some of the long-standing theories about oils while casting serious doubt on others. Going by these tests it would seem logical to assume that:

1.The viscosity of synthetic-based oils generally drops more slowly than that of petroleum-based oils in the same application.

2.Comparing these figures to viscosity retention for the same oils when used in an automobile (see later text by Prof. Woolum) would indicate that motorcycles are indeed harder on oils than cars.

3.The fastest and most significant drop in the viscosity of petroleum-based oils used in motorcycles occurs during the first 800 miles (or less) of use.
All of these results (1-3) agree with everything the oil companies have been telling us all along. However, the same test data also indicates that:

4.The viscosity of petroleum-based oils, whether designed for auto or motorcycle application, drop at approximately the same rate when used in a motorcycle.

5.There is no evidence that motorcycle-specific oils out-perform their automotive counterparts in viscosity retention when used in a motorcycle.

These last two results (4-5) definitely do not agree with what the motorcycle oil producers have been telling us. In fact the test results not only indicate the two motorcycle oils being outperformed in viscosity retention by the two automotive synthetic products. but even by the relatively inexpensive Castrol GTX, which is a petroleum product. This directly contradicts the advertising claims made by the motorcycle oil producers.

[Brettchuck]

Kowalski..That is one sweet looking bike!!!!

[V2K_CCTX]

I have used Mobil 1 in my motorcycles for years without a single problem.

[bluestringer]

Originally Posted by Kowalski

Bluestringer I never said that I thought Kawasaki made their own filters, nor do I put words in peoples mouthes. I've seen a website that took the Kawasaki filter apart and compared it to others, and their conclusion was it was a Good filter. The website was in some thread over on Riderforums.

Plato (I like that name by the way) It was bought used, records were included, but bike was out of warranty. The whole clutch thing is just a quirk that I've noticed and that I've been told about with motorcycles when their oil reaches the end of its life span. It just lets the plates slip more before they engage (and I've heard that this oddity is more pronounced on hydraulic clutch bikes). Every time that I change the oil I always notice that the clutch feels tighter.

To be honest I would rather stop talking about the whole thing. I just noticed that my post from Riderforums got brought up and I figured I would speak up. Plato, thanks for being civil about the whole thing. You are better than others I've encountered. Heres a couple of pics.

I agree, oil and filter threads are useless. Everyone just use what they want to.

That is a great looking Streak.

[KyBoy]

Love the bike Kowalski !

[art708]

Oil can do strange things. I used Mobil 15-50 in my old Nomad and my last Valkyrie....no problems at all. When I got the Valk I have now the guy had just done an oil change with Amsoil, which he's used since the bike was new. After about 4K miles I did an oil change and used Mobil 15-50 as usual. Within about 200 miles my clutch was slipping big time. I immediately changed back to Amsoil with a new filter and the problem stopped. That really surprised me since I'd used the Mobil before for so long without any slippage.

[Kowalski]

Originally Posted by Plato

First off, Nice Bike !!!

Okay your last comments here on old oil are true in my experience, but what threw me was saying the clutch wasn't grabbing. In my experience when the oil is fresh and new the shifting is easier -but I've not notice any problems with the clutch not grabbing on a warmed up bike using Rotella or M1 15w-50 regardless of miles.

Just to get as much info as possible on this...

Is that Meanie carbed or FI (sorry, I'm a Nad guy -so I can't tell at a glance ). Looks like you have an aftermarket air mod there (I like it btw) -but was that on this bike before the unfortunate breakdown ? Same questions on the pipes ?

And I believe someone else asked about the idle setting ? On my Nomad the idle setting needed adjustment early on just after breakin, but has been a non issue since then -should be around 950-1000rpm on most Vulcans. If it was set low then you would have some serious oil pressure issues going on -its a problem becuase most of us who fiddle with the pipes are looking for that Harley rumble you get at slow idle. Buying a used bike does have some risks simply becuase you can't account for how it was setup and used.

And just for the record, although I don't think your conclusion about auto oil and filters is correct -I would probably take your approach to these things after a major repair like you suffered. Might even yank those aftermarket air mods off

Thanks everybody, for the comments about my bike. I love a stripped down and clean look. The VTX shocks and Marauder headlight really help the lines of the bike.

Plato Its an FI Bike. The pipes were on the bike and I installed the Tornado intake before the breakdown. The idle setting acording to my PCIII that I installed and the tack, was set at about 850 to 900 when I got the bike. I leave it at about 900 to 950, although a low idle does sound good.

[Jerry Cutler]

Originally Posted by fritzi93

I love these contentious threads.

As to the claims for motorcycle oil...hype. Look here:

Testing Motorcycle Oil

A couple salient points:

1) Motorcycle oils are prominently displayed in parts departments at stealerships. Why?...wait for it...price point, that's why. It's a cash cow.

2) There's remarkably little difference between motorcycle-specific oil and auto oil. An excerpt from the link above:

The results of these tests seem to support some of the long-standing theories about oils while casting serious doubt on others. Going by these tests it would seem logical to assume that:

1.The viscosity of synthetic-based oils generally drops more slowly than that of petroleum-based oils in the same application.

2.Comparing these figures to viscosity retention for the same oils when used in an automobile (see later text by Prof. Woolum) would indicate that motorcycles are indeed harder on oils than cars.

3.The fastest and most significant drop in the viscosity of petroleum-based oils used in motorcycles occurs during the first 800 miles (or less) of use.
All of these results (1-3) agree with everything the oil companies have been telling us all along. However, the same test data also indicates that:

4.The viscosity of petroleum-based oils, whether designed for auto or motorcycle application, drop at approximately the same rate when used in a motorcycle.

5.There is no evidence that motorcycle-specific oils out-perform their automotive counterparts in viscosity retention when used in a motorcycle.

These last two results (4-5) definitely do not agree with what the motorcycle oil producers have been telling us. In fact the test results not only indicate the two motorcycle oils being outperformed in viscosity retention by the two automotive synthetic products. but even by the relatively inexpensive Castrol GTX, which is a petroleum product. This directly contradicts the advertising claims made by the motorcycle oil producers.

But why would you spend $15k (or whatever) on a really cool ride and then cheap out on maintenance?

I am recently retired after 44 years in the aviation (primarily helicopter) biz, and the LAST thing we try to save money on is maintenance.

I use Maxim oil and K&N oil filters and change often. If you calculate the cost per mile between cheepie stuff and good stuff it ain't that much.

And anyway, my Grampa told me many years ago that grease and oil is the cheapest maintenance you can buy.

[RichLockyer]

Originally Posted by Kowalski

installed and the tack, was set at about 850 to 900 when I got the bike. I leave it at about 900 to 950, although a low idle does sound good.

If it was 850-900 when you got it, there's a good possibility that the previous owner had been running it lower. These bikes WILL idle reliably at 650-700 if the mixture is right, but they will generate an FI light from the low oil pressure. We see probably 3 posts a month here on "I've got an FI light after an oil change" "Did you adjust your idle?" "Ya, I lowered it so it sounds like a Harley". It's a more common mistake than you might think, and on an overhead-cam engine, it is CRITICAL that the idle speed be set properly.

Spec is 950 +/- 50, so you're good to go at 900+.

From everything I've seen so far, I'm still thinking that the engine already had some damage before you got it and it finally smoked on you. There's just too many people running auto filters without a problem for it to be the fault of the Purolator filter. Even if you had a defective filter, it would simply not filter... either because of perforated media or clogged media forcing it into bypass. If it weren't a defective filter... then what's "special" about an MC filter? It's a roll of pleated paper, synthetic media, or a fibrous "foam" material and a bypass valve.

[RichLockyer]

Originally Posted by Jerry Cutler

But why would you spend $15k (or whatever) on a really cool ride and then cheap out on maintenance?

I agree with this 100%, HOWEVER....

The whole point of the debate is that the stuff sold at the dealerships MAY NOT BE superior to the stuff you can buy at WalMart/PepBoys/Autozone, etc....

I can get Mobil-1 V-Twin 20w50 from Autozone for about $2/qt cheaper than I can get it from the dealer... at about the SAME price as a "premium" MC synthetic blend from a company that doesn't actually MAKE oil, but simply buys commercial base stocks and blends an additive package.

So what is the logic in spending more than you NEED to, for a product that, without chemical analysis, both pre and post-run, is for all intents and purposes an unknown compound?



It's not about "cheaping out"... it's about getting the best VALUE in products that will provide adequate or superior protection.

[Jerry Cutler]

Originally Posted by RichLockyer

I agree with this 100%, HOWEVER....

The whole point of the debate is that the stuff sold at the dealerships MAY NOT BE superior to the stuff you can buy at WalMart/PepBoys/Autozone, etc....

I can get Mobil-1 V-Twin 20w50 from Autozone for about $2/qt cheaper than I can get it from the dealer... at about the SAME price as a "premium" MC synthetic blend from a company that doesn't actually MAKE oil, but simply buys commercial base stocks and blends an additive package.

So what is the logic in spending more than you NEED to, for a product that, without chemical analysis, both pre and post-run, is for all intents and purposes an unknown compound?



It's not about "cheaping out"... it's about getting the best VALUE in products that will provide adequate or superior protection.

I completely agree with you, Rich.

The point I am trying to make is, "When in doubt - buy good oil, good filters, grease often, lube your cables, adjust your valves, ... etc.

... but then I know you would agree with me on all this.