Beware of auto oil and additives

[JK591]

OK, here goes another can of worms (oil?). Motorcycle oil IS different than automobile oil in one major way. Most modern motorcycles use the same engine oil for their transmissions. (Older Triumph and BSA's had split cases or "pre-unit" engines.) Transmission gears are WAY harder on the oil than the combustion mechanics - i.e., piston, rings, etc. The meshing of the gears tend to "shear" the oil molecules and for that reason motorcycle oil has additives to inhibit that shearing process. Auto oil does not. Therefore, auto
oil breakdown happens really fast. True, you could save a few bucks a quart
by using it and changing your oil every five hundred miles, but that upsets those of us who may be ecologically minded. (Incidently, in Europe the average motorist goes around 8-10,000 miles between oil changes for reasons of economics and ecology and tend to view us as wasteful with our manufacturer's suggestion of 3-5000 here in the colonies.) For the longest time cycle oil also had to be formulated for air-cooled engines and still has ingredients for that, even though many/most bikes are liquid cooled. Also, beware of oil additives. Slick 150, STP, Marvel Oil etc. changes the chemical make-up of your oil - for the worse. If any of these additional additives were necessary, the various oil company chemists would already be doing it. (For just a few pennies.) Don't play junior chemist and undo their many years of
research in their million dollar laboratories. Incidentally, I really don't work for an OEM, and dislike paying the extra bucks for "special" oil and filters, but it makes a lot of sense to buy the best for my engine, and scrimp on my chrome
do-dads.

[ppark]

Originally Posted by JK591

OK, here goes another can of worms (oil?). Motorcycle oil IS different than automobile oil in one major way. Most modern motorcycles use the same engine oil for their transmissions. (Older Triumph and BSA's had split cases or "pre-unit" engines.) Transmission gears are WAY harder on the oil than the combustion mechanics - i.e., piston, rings, etc. The meshing of the gears tend to "shear" the oil molecules and for that reason motorcycle oil has additives to inhibit that shearing process. Auto oil does not. Therefore, auto
oil breakdown happens really fast. True, you could save a few bucks a quart
by using it and changing your oil every five hundred miles, but that upsets those of us who may be ecologically minded. (Incidently, in Europe the average motorist goes around 8-10,000 miles between oil changes for reasons of economics and ecology and tend to view us as wasteful with our manufacturer's suggestion of 3-5000 here in the colonies.) For the longest time cycle oil also had to be formulated for air-cooled engines and still has ingredients for that, even though many/most bikes are liquid cooled. Also, beware of oil additives. Slick 150, STP, Marvel Oil etc. changes the chemical make-up of your oil - for the worse. If any of these additional additives were necessary, the various oil company chemists would already be doing it. (For just a few pennies.) Don't play junior chemist and undo their many years of
research in their million dollar laboratories. Incidentally, I really don't work for an OEM, and dislike paying the extra bucks for "special" oil and filters, but it makes a lot of sense to buy the best for my engine, and scrimp on my chrome
do-dads.

What do you think of Seafoam?

[Phatboy]

I'll agree on the additives- oils already have a robust additives package and adding stuff to the oil messes with their formula. Seafoam is normally a fuel additive and most don't use it in the oil, but some do run sea foam in the oil just prior to an oil change to help loosen deposits in the crankcase.

Now you're saying the motorcycle oils don't break down as fast as the auto oil. Any way to back that claim? That has been the hype coming out of dealerships for years.

Here's Gadget's links on the subject: http://www.gadgetjq.com/Oil_Articles.htm

[Ron -Dog]

I've used Castrol GTX Oil in my bikes for years! API SG 10W40 never had a problem so far. Ran it in my V-Max Drag Bike for three years. (talk about abuse) and on regular teardown maintainance,everything looked like new inside. This bike got slammed thru the gears (with a air shift) @ 11500RPM. Time after time! No clutch failures,slippage ect. Here's something else that will get your mind going! It was shaft drive and all the racers that really run the Max used a mixture of 90w hypoid in the diff,plus 10-15% STP! I have kicked around the idea of using that formula in my street bikes rear-end,but never have. They claimed that the STP(I hate the gooie stuff,) cut friction by 20% in the diff. I think that if it's in the owners manual,you will be ok. Some things that aren't in the owners manual are ok,and some aren't RD

[woodchucks800]

These oil an filter threads are always nice. I asked the other day for someone to show me proof of a oil/filter related failure to there motor an no one responded. I wonder why? could it be because this kind of problem just doesn't happen like it use to anymore? or is it because different oils an filters have gotten to the point that they can't improve them much more?

[Ron -Dog]

Your right WC, there's alot of talk and no proof that I've seen. I've got a buddy that just got a new Harley. He was telling me that the dealer said to use ONLY Harley Davidson oil in his bike. I looked at him and said,I think I know a guy that works in their OIL REFINERY! He just looked at me! I couldn't help it ,and busted out laughing! There's alot of hype out there RD

[2WheelFun]

You can use auto oil in motorcycles...just be sure NOT to use oil that say's Energy Conserving! The additives in that oil will affect a wet clutch.

[grandpawmoses]

Originally Posted by whistle clean

You can use auto oil in motorcycles...just be sure NOT to use oil that say's Energy Conserving! The additives in that oil will affect a wet clutch.

Yep. that's what I've heard too. Too much slick-um in the energy conserving oil for a clutch.

[oldcoldankles]

Originally Posted by ppark

What do you think of Seafoam?

Some guys have added it to their oil with sometimes disastrous results, I know of one motorcycle case plus another with a large reciprcating compressor, but you can read all about it on this site:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/images/lucas/lucas.htm

[2WheelFun]

Originally Posted by ppark

What do you think of Seafoam?

I only use it as a fuel additive.

[ppark]

Originally Posted by oldcoldankles

Some guys have added it to their oil with sometimes disastrous results, I know of one motorcycle case plus another with a large reciprcating compressor, but you can read all about it on this site:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/images/lucas/lucas.htm

I am not sure how similar the Lucas additive is to Seafoam but I guess the main point is not to mix additives with the oil in your engine.
Also, is the article indicating that a full synthetic oil is not good at slow start? How does this impact motorcycles using synthetic oil?

[1400pilot]

Originally Posted by woodchucks800

These oil an filter threads are always nice. I asked the other day for someone to show me proof of a oil/filter related failure to there motor an no one responded. I wonder why? could it be because this kind of problem just doesn't happen like it use to anymore? or is it because different oils an filters have gotten to the point that they can't improve them much more?

I think you are right woody, but it is hard to prove also. I have seen many engine failures in cars and trucks with my years in dealerships, and after taking down engines with damage you cant prove it one way or the other, if the motor has spun a rod brg or main brg,whose to say if it was lack of lube or bad brgs, high rpm, just to many variables. Most engine oil failures on auto engines will happen to the camshaft and lifters as that is where the most pressure is exerted, between the lobe and the foot of the lifter, I remember back in the early eighties, chevy engines in pickups were notorius for wiping off the #6 cylinder intake and exhaust cam lobes, we came to find out that it was caused by the egr valve which allowes hot exhaust gas to come in close contact with the engine parts around the lifter and actually cook the oil away. hence the wear on the cam and lifter. Now all modern engines have roller cams and lifters, so those problems are history.
most engine damage is caused by one thing and one thing only........
LACK OF MAINTANENCE!!!!!!!!!!!!! keep the oil and filter changed and coolant regularly serviced, and all other fluids serviced and you should have many trouble free miles.

[woodchucks800]

Originally Posted by 1600pilot

I remember back in the early eighties, chevy engines in pickups were notorius for wiping off the #6 cylinder intake and exhaust cam lobes, we came to find out that it was caused by the egr valve which allowes hot exhaust gas to come in close contact with the engine parts around the lifter and actually cook the oil away.

I'm sure it's hard to prove an oil failure Deron,. but with that said your above post shows a bad design with the positioning of egr valve which cooked the oil away causing the problem, not from the breakdown of the oil or bad filtering. Like I said before these oil threads are always enlighting. Now whats Whistle using metzler 10w40 or michelins 20w50?

[2WheelFun]

Originally Posted by woodchucks800

I'm sure it's hard to prove an oil failure Daron,. but with that said your above post shows a bad design with the positioning of egr valve which cooked the oil away causing the problem, not from the breakdown of the oil or bad filtering. Like I said before these oil threads are always enlighting. Now whats Whistle using metzler 10w40 or michelins 20w50?

LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I try and fill front and back tires to the brim with a combo of each...that way I cover all the bases...or should I say...rubber.

[1400pilot]

Originally Posted by woodchucks800

I'm sure it's hard to prove an oil failure Daron,. but with that said your above post shows a bad design with the positioning of egr valve which cooked the oil away causing the problem, not from the breakdown of the oil or bad filtering. Like I said before these oil threads are always enlighting. Now whats Whistle using metzler 10w40 or michelins 20w50?

yup thats right, it wasnt caused by oil or filter, and not many, or any at all, engine failures are, even though oil and filters are blamed, there is always something else that starts the damage,.....i.e. running the oil to long in the motor between changes, the detergents and other additives wear out and are not able to hold the deposits any more.

I have seen and heard people blame oil for their motors failure, it usually goes like this.....It just started knocking and banging and I then checked the oil and it didnt register on the dipstick, so the oil had to be bad because it didnt stay in the engine.......after futher checking with the customer about their oil change habits, you usually come to find out that they neglected to get the oil changed for 12,000 miles or more, and never even raise the hood to check it!!!
but its the oils fault it should last longer than that!!!

as far as whistle goes.........hes been dropped on his head so many times he cant even remember if tires are round!!!! heeheeheehee

[xepathfinder]

I have never heard either of any engine failure due to a particular oil filter or oil. I have heard of a few people not changing there oil for a couple years and having major problems. I feel that if you change your oil regulary you will not have any oil related engine failures. I will still use Fram filters and Mobil non-energy conserving 10w-40 in my bike. And change it on a regular basis. It is a combination that had worked well for 6500 miles. I tried a Kawasaki filter at 6500 miles I have 7300 now and will check to see if the oil looks any different at my next oil change.
I wonder with oil going through the roof, if the 3000 mile oil change will be a thing of the past. My RAV4 I believe reccomends oil changes at 7500 miles though it might be 5000? but i know it is much more than 3000 miles. I have a few friends that have pushed there oil changes to 5000 miles becuase they just don't believe under normal use and with a Japanese engine that it will hurt it and they feel like the guy posted about Europeans going much longer in between oil changes, that we are wasting oil.

[2WheelFun]

Originally Posted by 1600pilot

yup thats right, it wasnt caused by oil or filter, and not many, or any at all, engine failures are, even though oil and filters are blamed, there is always something else that starts the damage,.....i.e. running the oil to long in the motor between changes, the detergents and other additives wear out and are not able to hold the deposits any more.

I have seen and heard people blame oil for their motors failure, it usually goes like this.....It just started knocking and banging and I then checked the oil and it didnt register on the dipstick, so the oil had to be bad because it didnt stay in the engine.......after futher checking with the customer about their oil change habits, you usually come to find out that they neglected to get the oil changed for 12,000 miles or more, and never even raise the hood to check it!!!
but its the oils fault it should last longer than that!!!

as far as whistle goes.........hes been dropped on his head so many times he cant even remember if tires are round!!!! heeheeheehee

Deron...it's not nice to make fun of the handicapped! I'm safe now as I wear a brain saver rubber helmet now.

[1400pilot]

whew!!!!!!!!!!glad to see your safe now, but seeing how far the head is from the ground, maybe might consider a thicker helment?

[Phatboy]

If what the original poster said is true that the oil breaks down faster with auto oil then that would with moto oil then that would mean a shorter changing interval. I doubt the oil would loose viscosity at less than a thousand miles as was claimed. If the auto oil is braking down sooner that'd proably mean a 2000 mile interval which is what most people are doing anyways as opposed to the recommended 2500. Just playing devil's advocate and doing a little guesswork here With synthetic you are supposed to be able to go 5k intervals.

So my point is that even if auto oil does break down faster you should be able to use it as long as it isn't energy conserving. I'm using oil for diesels which I suspect is even better than the moto oil =P
What?? Is your oil ch-4 rated?? =P

ps this one might be a thread killa 4 sure =P

[2WheelFun]

Originally Posted by Phatboy

If what the original poster said is true that the oil breaks down faster with auto oil then that would with moto oil then that would mean a shorter changing interval. I doubt the oil would loose viscosity at less than a thousand miles as was claimed. If the auto oil is braking down sooner that'd proably mean a 2000 mile interval which is what most people are doing anyways as opposed to the recommended 2500. Just playing devil's advocate and doing a little guesswork here With synthetic you are supposed to be able to go 5k intervals.

So my point is that even if auto oil does break down faster you should be able to use it as long as it isn't energy conserving. I'm using oil for diesels which I suspect is even better than the moto oil =P
What?? Is your oil ch-4 rated?? =P

ps this one might be a thread killa 4 sure =P

Nothing like beating a dead horse!