Beag's in da Darkside hizzouse!

[Guitar7272]

Originally Posted by Blaneb

Guitar7272,

Motorcycle tires having softer rubber than car tires would be a good argument against using a car tire, IF it were true. This seems to be one of the first arguments you hear from naysayers and its completely wrong. The link below is an absolute pigsty for the aggressively ignorant and is a perfect example of how a couple of morons can ruin a perfectly good forum, it's a blast to read. But at least someone there took the time to do some research on the "softer rubber" issue and back it up with some durometer numbers that measure rubber hardness. The higher the durometer number, the harder the rubber compound.

So, some popular street motorcycle tires such as the Dunlop E3 and Metzler 880 have durometer numbers in the low 70s. Some expensive high performance street motorcycle tires such as: Dunlop D207 has a durometer number of 57 and Avon Super Venom has a durometer number of 61.

Eight 60,000 mile rated car tires tested had durometer numbers of 65.

High performance car tires have durometer numbers in the 40s and 50s.

Given those durometer numbers, do motorcycle tires or car tires have softer rubber compounds?


The Dark Side (Revisited) - Motorcycle-Journal Forums

If they do have softer compound, then there is a lot of misinformation out there from published sources. Some guy does a non scientific test with a gauge that looks like it came from pepboys and all of a sudden its gospel? I'm sorry that doesn't fly with me - until I see a bike manufacturer, a tire manufacturer or an impartial 3rd party endorse this practice - I'm not going to do it. That doesn't mean you cant do it, just that I disagree with the practice. If bikerbeagle is happy with this conversion, than great I'm happy for him because it doesn't effect me.

And drop the sanctimonious, holier than thou garbage - it really is tiresome. Pretty much anyone who disagrees with running a car tire is "ignorant" and a "moron"? Cmon, really, give it a break. There are people who disagree for valid reasons, but you, unable to account for them just dismiss them in hand and label them ignorant and moronic? This is the real world, people are allowed to disagree with what you say.

[azwiley1]

[quote=Guitar7272;1135098]If they do have softer compound, then there is a lot of misinformation out there from published sources. Some guy does a non scientific test with a gauge that looks like it came from pepboys and all of a sudden its gospel? I'm sorry that doesn't fly with me - until I see a bike manufacturer, a tire manufacturer or an impartial 3rd party endorse this practice - I'm not going to do it. That doesn't mean you cant do it, just that I disagree with the practice. If bikerbeagle is happy with this conversion, than great I'm happy for him because it doesn't effect me.

And drop the sanctimonious, holier than thou garbage - it really is tiresome. Pretty much anyone who disagrees with running a car tire is "ignorant" and a "moron"? Cmon, really, give it a break. There are people who disagree for valid reasons, but you, unable to account for them just dismiss them in hand and label them ignorant and moronic? This is the real world, people are allowed to disagree with what you say.[/QUOTE]

No it isn't! No you're not!!!!

[Guitar7272]

Originally Posted by azwiley1

No it isn't! No you're not!!!!

[Blaneb]

Originally Posted by Guitar7272

If they do have softer compound, then there is a lot of misinformation out there from published sources. Some guy does a non scientific test with a gauge that looks like it came from pepboys and all of a sudden its gospel? I'm sorry that doesn't fly with me - until I see a bike manufacturer, a tire manufacturer or an impartial 3rd party endorse this practice - I'm not going to do it. That doesn't mean you cant do it, just that I disagree with the practice. If bikerbeagle is happy with this conversion, than great I'm happy for him because it doesn't effect me.

And drop the sanctimonious, holier than thou garbage - it really is tiresome. Pretty much anyone who disagrees with running a car tire is "ignorant" and a "moron"? Cmon, really, give it a break. There are people who disagree for valid reasons, but you, unable to account for them just dismiss them in hand and label them ignorant and moronic? This is the real world, people are allowed to disagree with what you say.

So, you choose to just completely disregard the durometer numbers and offer nothing to refute them. Good for you!

Disagreeing about running a car tire on a bike is understandable as it seems unwise on its face. All I ever promoted was trying to use some facts and provide some good data on rubber compounds that wasn't just pulled from my rectum. You seem to have a pretty strong opinion about running a car tire and that's fine. I'm sure that if you really relied on published information that refutes these durometer numbers you'll gladly produce it.

I don't recall saying anyone was ignorant or a moron for disagreeing about running car tires. I called them ignorant and morons because they choose to deride people and call them stupid and morons for their choice of running a car tire based on ignorance. Then they cover their eyes and ears and deny any evidence that disagrees with their ignorant and moronic rants.

[Guitar7272]

Originally Posted by Blaneb

So, you choose to just completely disregard the durometer numbers and offer nothing to refute them. Good for you!

Disagreeing about running a car tire on a bike is understandable as it seems unwise on its face. All I ever promoted was trying to use some facts and provide some good data on rubber compounds that wasn't just pulled from my rectum. You seem to have a pretty strong opinion about running a car tire and that's fine. I'm sure that if you really relied on published information that refutes these durometer numbers you'll gladly produce it.

I don't recall saying anyone was ignorant or a moron for disagreeing about running car tires. I called them ignorant and morons because they choose to deride people and call them stupid and morons for their choice of running a car tire based on ignorance. Then they cover their eyes and ears and deny any evidence that disagrees with their ignorant and moronic rants.

I didn't disregard the durometer numbers - I specifically addressed them when I said "Some guy does a non scientific test with a gauge that looks like it came from pepboys and all of a sudden its gospel". Some biased dude in the backyard with a coors lite and an ebay gauge doesn't qualify as proof to me. Was the gauge calibrated? Were the tires new or used? If used how many miles? How worn? Were the tires the same temperature when tested? Inflated? Deflated? Was the same amount of force being applied to the instrument? Was the data reproducible at different times, on different parts of the tire and amongst different tires of the same make?

The point being, none of these variables (and many others) are accounted for.

I really don't have strong opinions regarding running a car tire - I haven't done it myself so I cant draw from my experiences. In fact, I stated before that I was perfectly willing to reevaluate my stance in light of proven scientific data, which, might I add has not been produced.

Whatever your motive was in calling people moronic and ignorant, its best to leave such words out of the discussion.

[zedx11]

you're starting out pretty good. LOL

[jeebee]

Maybe the durometer used wasn't the most accurate at indicating the precise hardness of the tires. It's possible that it could be off a certain percentage. But, it does indicate the difference in hardness. You know, even scientists in the end check their findings in the real world. When something works out unexpectedly, then they go back and recheck for bad data. Maybe you should, too. The damn things work. We have done it.

JeeBee

[Guitar7272]

Originally Posted by jeebee

Maybe the durometer used wasn't the most accurate at indicating the precise hardness of the tires. It's possible that it could be off a certain percentage. But, it does indicate the difference in hardness. You know, even scientists in the end check their findings in the real world. When something works out unexpectedly, then they go back and recheck for bad data. Maybe you should, too. The damn things work. We have done it.

JeeBee

No one said they dont work... they obviously work since many people have done it. The question is how well in comparison to a motorcycle tire. When I see them using car tires in motoGP races for, you know, "enhanced grip" then I might raise an eyebrow.

And I dont care enough to go out and take my own durometer measurements - I'm not going to disregard what the bike manufacturer, tire manufacturer and my gut feeling dictate just to save a few dollars. If y'all want to do it and find success with it, great, I'm thrilled for you.

[Blaneb]

Originally Posted by Guitar7272

I didn't disregard the durometer numbers - I specifically addressed them when I said "Some guy does a non scientific test with a gauge that looks like it came from pepboys and all of a sudden its gospel". Some biased dude in the backyard with a coors lite and an ebay gauge doesn't qualify as proof to me. Was the gauge calibrated? Were the tires new or used? If used how many miles? How worn? Were the tires the same temperature when tested? Inflated? Deflated? Was the same amount of force being applied to the instrument? Was the data reproducible at different times, on different parts of the tire and amongst different tires of the same make?

The point being, none of these variables (and many others) are accounted for.

I really don't have strong opinions regarding running a car tire - I haven't done it myself so I cant draw from my experiences. In fact, I stated before that I was perfectly willing to reevaluate my stance in light of proven scientific data, which, might I add has not been produced.

Whatever your motive was in calling people moronic and ignorant, its best to leave such words out of the discussion.

You specifically disregarded the durometer numbers in my post, which have nothing to do with whatever beer drinking guy you decided to bring in to the discussion. It may be some clever way to avoid addressing the actual durometer numbers I mentioned but for what purpose?. The durometer numbers in my post came from several sources such as tire dealers, manufacturers, etc. and this information is readily available to anyone with even the slightest interest in the facts.

I know this may be disappointing but durometers are pretty simple devices. Even though they may not have enough flashy lights or beep enough to suit you, they are "scientific" instruments that have no bias. I have no idea if Pep Boys sells durometers but I'm sure they can probably be had on eBay. If you did buy a durometer on eBay then you would get a device designed to test the hardness of rubber because that's what durometers do. I'm assuming you are referring to some tests that someone on the thread I pointed to performed. What does that have to do with the data I posted?? If you bother to look at the tires I mentioned you will see they don't match what was tested in some other post.

So once again I salute you for disregarding the valid data I presented and using some other source that I never mentioned to try diminish it, while still offering nothing to refute it!

The several people in the thread I mentioned felt they had the right to call the person who originally posted stupid and moronic for saying he was running a car tire with good results, but I guess they felt entitled to their opinion. So I'm entitled to my opinion that they are rude, aggressively ignorant morons as I feel they demonstrated the fact in the rantings. But as I'm sure they would say, just my opinion.

This post has nothing to do with running car tires and I never even stated if it was or was not a good idea. It is about whether or not motorcycle tires are softer than car tires. There is a whole world of valid information out there, I just mentioned a few numbers from what appeared to me to be unbiased testers from tire shops, tire manufactures, etc. It is easy enough to refute if you can.

It would be interesting to see if anyone who make such definitive statements on the subject is willing to back it up. I haven't seen it yet and am not holding my breath.

[Guitar7272]

Originally Posted by Blaneb

It would be interesting to see if anyone who make such definitive statements on the subject is willing to back it up. I haven't seen it yet and am not holding my breath.

Ditto.

[Blaneb]

Originally Posted by Guitar7272

Ditto.

Great! Here's your definitive statement:

"I saw them too and they look the same as the other one. Theres nothing out there thats going to convince me a car tire on a motorcycle is a good idea. They wear out faster because they're made of a softer, grippier rubber consisting of up to 9 compounds give or take. Car tires are like 1-3. Grip is good in my book."

Have at it!!

[Guitar7272]

Originally Posted by Blaneb

Great! Here's your definitive statement:

"I saw them too and they look the same as the other one. Theres nothing out there thats going to convince me a car tire on a motorcycle is a good idea. They wear out faster because they're made of a softer, grippier rubber consisting of up to 9 compounds give or take. Car tires are like 1-3. Grip is good in my book."

Have at it!!

I told you I am perfectly willing to reexamine my stance given the proper information and I'll admit that I mispoke when I said "nothing" is going to convince me. You on the other hand have already made your mind up. The onus is on you, my friend, not me - you're the one trying to convince the unwashed "moronic" masses that car tires are just as good, if not better, than motorcycle tires.

For your referennce, here is the published source I got the compound information in my post from: Motorcycle Tire Tips - MotorcycleUSA.com

Where's your source for the holy grail durometer numbers you posted so I can review them?

[jeebee]

Originally Posted by Guitar7272

No one said they dont work... they obviously work since many people have done it. The question is how well in comparison to a motorcycle tire. When I see them using car tires in motoGP races for, you know, "enhanced grip" then I might raise an eyebrow.

And I dont care enough to go out and take my own durometer measurements - I'm not going to disregard what the bike manufacturer, tire manufacturer and my gut feeling dictate just to save a few dollars. If y'all want to do it and find success with it, great, I'm thrilled for you.

And the answer is, on the right type of motorcycle, they work better than motorcycle tires. The thing is, the manufacturers could make a motorcycle version designed for motorcycles that would be even better. They need to utilize the best traits from both designs. It's funny to me that everyone that's tried this, likes it alot, but they do understand that the CT is not the perfect tire for us. It's better than what we have been using. It is a performance upgrade for cruisers that can fit them. More load rating than necessary means we will enjoy a generous safety margin. Braking and road holding (especially appreciated in the rain), are huge benefits. And, yes, mileage and purchase price, well they're just icing on the cake. I'm not so much disregarding what the manufacturers are saying, I'm disregarding what they've chosen to give us to ride on. Tell me how they are superior. They are failing this test. The only advantage the motorcycle tires have is that for the first couple of thousand miles, they have the ideal shape. Sorry, but once that's gone, they suck.

JeeBee

[moparman]

I like my car tire.
I won't ever go back.

[Blaneb]

Originally Posted by Guitar7272

I told you I am perfectly willing to reexamine my stance given the proper information and I'll admit that I mispoke when I said "nothing" is going to convince me. You on the other hand have already made your mind up. The onus is on you, my friend, not me - you're the one trying to convince the unwashed "moronic" masses that car tires are just as good, if not better, than motorcycle tires.

For your referennce, here is the published source I got the compound information in my post from: Motorcycle Tire Tips - MotorcycleUSA.com

Where's your source for the holy grail durometer numbers you posted so I can review them?

I really don't know how to make this any clearer than I already have on several occasions so you force me to quote myself "This post has nothing to do with running car tires and I never even stated if it was or was not a good idea. It is about whether or not motorcycle tires are softer than car tires." How much clearer can I make it?? I'm not trying to convince anyone to do anything. I'm trying to clear up a misconception that many people seem to have. There is no onus on me for anything.

I commend you for actually providing a reference. It is easy to understand how someone could come away with the thought that motorcycle tires are softer than car tires, but that claim is not made anywhere in that article. It mentions several reasons for motorcycle tire wearing out quickly but never claims it is because they have softer rubber than car tires.

If you take a good look at this article, it does a pretty good job of explaining WHY motorcycle tires have to be harder than car tires due to the small contact patch, high horsepower, etc. If a motorcycle tire was made with rubber a soft as a car tire it would wear out in 500 miles. Think about it, it make perfect sense.

I will provide one reference that gives several durometer numbers I used in my post, just so you can match them up and see I didn't make them up.

Vee Rubber Co. Street and Trail DOT Tires, Durometer Rubber Hardness Tester Numbers

All the rest are easy enough to locate via Google. I think you'll agree at least these readings appear to be unbiased.

The statement that "Motorcycle tires can have as many as nine different compounds in its makeup, whereas a car tire might have just two or three." is a pretty non committed statement from a tire company trying to explain why their tires are so freaking expensive. But even this does not say the "can have as many as nine" compounds are softer than the "two or three" in the car tire. Honestly, if you are interested in the facts take a minute to look them up. I provided one link but the rest is readily available. I just hope this post can get people to consider that some things everyone believes as fact may not be true.

[Guitar7272]

Originally Posted by Blaneb

I really don't know how to make this any clearer than I already have on several occasions so you force me to quote myself "This post has nothing to do with running car tires and I never even stated if it was or was not a good idea. It is about whether or not motorcycle tires are softer than car tires." How much clearer can I make it?? I'm not trying to convince anyone to do anything. I'm trying to clear up a misconception that many people seem to have.

I commend you for actually providing a reference. It is easy to understand how someone could come away with the thought that motorcycle tires are softer than car tires but that claim is not made in that article. It mentions several reasons for motorcycle tire wearing out quickly but never claims it is because they have softer rubber than car tires.

I will provide one reference that gives several durometer numbers I used in my post, just so you can match them up and see I didn't make them up.

Vee Rubber Co. Street and Trail DOT Tires, Durometer Rubber Hardness Tester Numbers

All the rest are easy enough to locate via Google. I think you'll agree these reading appear to be unbiased.

The statement that "Motorcycle tires can have as many as nine different compounds in its makeup, whereas a car tire might have just two or three." is a pretty non committed statement from a tire company trying to explain why their tires are so freaking expensive. But even this does not say the "can have as many as nine" compounds are softer than the "two or three" in the car tire. Honestly, if you are interested in the facts take a minute to look them up. I provided one link but the rest is readily available. I just hope this post can get people consider that some things everyone believes as fact may not be true.

Thanks for the link I'll take it into consideration. I'm having a discussion with both you and jeebee at the same time, so while you are talking specifically about the softness of the tire, jeebee ,and others, are talking more about the superiority so I'm trying to address both at the same time. Please grant me a little leeway in this regard.

Ill agree that the statements in that article are pretty vague from an obviously biased source, however there is no real quality, substantive information out there short of some durometer numbers and a bunch of people who have good experiences with both car tires and mc tires. And that is my whole point: Before I consider putting a car tire on my motorcycle and entrusting it to some extent with my life, I want to see some qualitative and quantitative information on it.

Perhaps this is a job for mythbusters... in fact I just checked and someone already suggested it. I bumped it because I really would like to see some good information on the subject for once.

[moparman]

Originally Posted by therogue

Good info Beagle. I've been interested but scared of the handling downside. Watching for your future impressions.

As he said, the handling is different at first. Soon you will be riding it like you have been on a car tire all your life. It feels really odd riding my w