The Science of Cornering

[X E Ryder]

So at the risk of opening a big can of worms due to opinions from all over the board. Let's talk cornering! I mean getting around those twisties Off the Track.

I feel there is a little bit different method to running on the street and a few more challenges to going fast around a corner all within an 8 foot lane. I also beleive you have to set some sort of limit on how fast you are gonna go, or sooner or later you go off the road and find that with no runoff area (like at a track) you are in deep uh... Tapioca, yeah that's it.

I do not represent myself as anyone other than some guy with alot of experience and some schooling/racing in his background that wants to save other riders a few falls. I will be speaking from what Keith Code taught me long ago, and a whole bunch of things I found out (sometimes the hard way).

If your pucks look like this from street riding....


...then you may not find this thread of any interest. If they don't, maybe I can offer you something you can use.

Before I type for an hour, maybe let's get our minds in the right place with a video clip you might like. If you listen for the "shhhhhh" sound you are hearing the sweet sound of a knee puck on the road.

X E Ryder Frying Puck on Hwy 150 (Updated)

Have something to add? Come on in and fry some pucks with us!

[Regalia]

I have no pucks to fry! Maybe I'll have to get some, though, after seeing that beautiful display!

How do you keep your line when hanging that far off the bike? When I hang over that far, especially on the right hand side, I seem to cause the bike to wobble a little. My line isn't crisp. I seem to hold a better line when I am off the left side of the bike, but it is still not all that great. Am I pulling the bike too far over?

You make it look so easy!

[Thmastr]

Originally Posted by Regalia

I have no pucks to fry! Maybe I'll have to get some, though, after seeing that beautiful display!

How do you keep your line when hanging that far off the bike? When I hang over that far, especially on the right hand side, I seem to cause the bike to wobble a little. My line isn't crisp. I seem to hold a better line when I am off the left side of the bike, but it is still not all that great. Am I pulling the bike too far over?

You make it look so easy!

you may not be going fast enough... I have found out that if I go through a turn faster I am able so smooth out my line... but then again this a newbie talkin!

[diablo13346]

Originally Posted by X E Ryder

So at the risk of opening a big can of worms due to opinions from all over the board. Let's talk cornering! I mean getting around those twisties Off the Track.

I feel there is a little bit different method to running on the street and a few more challenges to going fast around a corner all within an 8 foot lane. I also beleive you have to set some sort of limit on how fast you are gonna go, or sooner or later you go off the road and find that with no runoff area (like at a track) you are in deep uh... Tapioca, yeah that's it.

I do not represent myself as anyone other than some guy with alot of experience and some schooling/racing in his background that wants to save other riders a few falls. I will be speaking from what Keith Code taught me long ago, and a whole bunch of things I found out (sometimes the hard way).

If your pucks look like this from street riding....


...then you may not find this thread of any interest. If they don't, maybe I can offer you something you can use.

Before I type for an hour, maybe let's get our minds in the right place with a couple video clips you might like. If you listen for the "shhhhhh" sound you are hearing the sweet sound of a knee puck on the road.

14mb Knee Dragger clip in large format with sound #1

24mb Knee Dragger clip in large format with sound #2

Have something to add? Come on in and fry some pucks with us!

whos knee draggin tehre the 2nd guy in that movie? lol j.k thats nice i need to get some pants with pucks so i can drag..... knees that it

[darkwolf29a]

Very cool videos.

I'm not sure that I'll ever get to the point of needing pucks. LOL I tend to slow down a bit before my corners, just float in a bit and then roll on the throttle just before I start my lean. I, in fact, look like the dude in back. LOL

But, then...I'm not riding a race bike or a rocket, just an old cruiser.

I must admit, that as my confidence in my ability grows, I am leaning over more now than before. Of course, I have onlly been riding for 3 or 4 months. Leans like you are doing in the video take time to build up to, I imagine.

[daemon]

i need to get a full suit as well someday!!!
i have yet to get a knee down and i'm sure it has something to do with my posture.
i have however run the chickenstrip off my 190 rear conti's

[X E Ryder]

Regalia, The amount you hangoff is very subjective to speed and radius of the corner. A gentle sweeping corner at 120 will take about the same body english as a 90 degree 15MPH suggested turn at 35 for instance. Let the road help you choose how far to hangoff, and always err on the "more body english" side because not having enough is alot worse than having too much. That is, you can always get back on the seat if you find you are undershooting the turn, but if you were not off enough, you may find it hairy to try and get further off while overshooting a corner and braking to salvage it!

Thmastr is on the right track as well, slow tight turns take lots more practice to carve smoothly than faster sweeping turns.

diablo13346, that is my buddy Mandein, he is running interference for me while I dial in my suspension. It is nice to know there is somebody back there watching out for you when you run hard. Never fly without a wingman!

darkwolf29a, you should consider starting your body english before/during the braking in to the apex phase of your corner. It sounds like you choose the Deep Line, which I do too, but you can pick up alot more speed if you get the party started a little sooner.

daemon, If you have run the chicken strips off the edge of your tires, you are ready. Note that with some tires sizes/profiles, you may never be able to completely get rid of the chicken strip, and this is ok, because no chicken strip means you are out of tread at full lean!

I am so swamped with work, but will try to get something informative up tonight.

[daemon]

yeah,i have heard that if i wanted to test my limit's in getting rid of the CS i should go to a higher profile tire.
i.e. a 180 55
on my conti road attack's i never got rid of the CS,but on the sport's i feel as confident as a racer.
my GF is very understanding of my need for day's out on lone run's.
i really would like some head's up in teaching her better posture while riding.

it kinda feel's like she act's as an extra ballast even when she is sitting as still as possible.

[ervins]

Originally Posted by Thmastr

you may not be going fast enough... I have found out that if I go through a turn faster I am able so smooth out my line... but then again this a newbie talkin!

+1 The faster the smoother...Just as in another thread where X E and I mentioned that riding at the same speed in straights (in twisties area) and in your turns is a lot more fun...So if I am going 55+ in a 20 I am also doing that in the straight prior. However, I am setting up my body prior to the lean and am fully aware of the line I want. If I go down to 30-40 in a twisty, I feel all sketchy and wobbly...You need the engine consistent for smooths. Also, Bross posted a link and the guy was doing the turn in 2nd...The instructor said go third and boom he was set.

I see this as becoming a really good thread.

[Pistobah]

Originally Posted by ervins

I see this as becoming a really good thread.

I agree.

I've got some chicken strip left. It's difficult enough to find a twisty road here in KS, let alone one that isn't covered in tar or patches. I can go fast in a straight line and i can pull a wheelie, but nearly anyone can do that with the twist of a wrist. I'm much more interested in leaning hard in the corners.

[ervins]

Originally Posted by Pistobah

I agree.

I've got some chicken strip left. It's difficult enough to find a twisty road here in KS, let alone one that isn't covered in tar or patches. I can go fast in a straight line and i can pull a wheelie, but nearly anyone can do that with the twist of a wrist. I'm much more interested in leaning hard in the corners.

I hear you on twisties...I even lean more than I need to on sweeping turns on the highway just to get more feel and practice.

[Pistobah]

Originally Posted by ervins

I hear you on twisties...I even lean more than I need to on sweeping turns on the highway just to get more feel and practice.

I do the same thing, but like i said turns are hard to come by around here. I guess i just need to take more road trips to colorado, missouri, tennesee and anywhere else that has lots of twisties.

[daemon]

Originally Posted by Pistobah

I do the same thing, but like i said turns are hard to come by around here. I guess i just need to take more road trips to colorado, missouri, tennesee and anywhere else that has lots of twisties.

look me up when it come's to your colorado trip.
and plan on a 300+ mile day.
i know the deadly ones

[sebastian1000]

I am a newb....what's a chicken strip?

[daemon]

Originally Posted by Sebastian600

I am a newb....what's a chicken strip?

a chicken strip is what is left over of the lean on your tread.
i.e. where you have not reached the edge of your tire

[sebastian1000]

o ok thanks....I really don't have them too much...cool.

[Superfly]

Nice videos! Reminds me of Angeles Crest

[Falx250r]

xe ryder i just have to say your a welcome addition to this forum, noone else posts stuff like this, and you seem to know a WHOLE LOT about bikes.

thx!

[X E Ryder]

Well I was gonna start getting into the nitty gritty but all this talk about chicken strips side tracked me a bit.

Let's make sure everyone is very clear that you may NOT want to just keep leaning over until you have gotten rid of your chicken strips, if you ride on the street. If you ride at the track one of two things will happen, you will get ride of them or crash trying.

Remember that this indicates that you have ridden the bike over far enough to run out of tread, so at the very time you want a decent contact patch the most, you are actually thinning it out because you have run out of usable tire tread and have gone off the edge, and thus have no further tread to scuff.

Here is a pic of my rear tire taken tonight. I have zoomed in alot to make sure you could see the relevant things.



You can see I have labeled the rolled tread. This is where I am riding very hard and tread is literally peeling off the tire. The tire is hot and happy in this mode until it begins to finally degrade.

Next is scuffed tread, that is recent wear further over or only occasional use. Notice is is really close to the edge of the tire. The fact this tread is not rolled is good since I ride this tire on the street only.

The last is the unused tread, this is the little bit of margin I have for the occasional powerslide or slip. Notice the big silver bar to the left? That is my wheel's bead, so there isvery little unused, even though I am draggin my knee alot.

This is a great thing, because I have not run out of tread or compromised my contact patch, even at full lean, dragging, and getting the rear tire loose around corners. But you could say that is MY chicken strip, but I don't really feel chicken heheheh.

It is about 1/16" or less wide, but its presence reassures me, it does not make me want to ride harder. I drift the rear end around corners while dragging my knee, that is fast enough on the street to satisfy me thanx.

One other thing you might notice is what is happening to the tread groove in the tire. The corner of the groove on the drive side is chopped off and drops down by radius into the groove. This starts to happen when you start to roll on the gas harder as you become more confident at high lean angles.

The groove on the coast side of the tread is lifted up higher than the rest of the tire now, this comes from really pushing the tire at full lean with alot of throttle and maybe some drifting. If I ride nicey nice this will smooth back out again.

Looking at all these factors on someone else's tire can tell you alot about how they ride, it tells a story about their riding habits.

So don't gauge your riding by your "chicken strips". Use these real signs of tire wear to tell you what is going on back there, your safety depends on it. It can tell you alot about what you are doing to your skins, and they are very important to keeping you going the right way.

[daemon]

evaluate mine please!!!
this was from a purely unfortunate riding day.
i had 2 in my group of 7 go down,but i came back proud to see my CS gone from the rear.
although i don't think i push mine to quite the same length's as you do.
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