Would you recommend a 600cc supersport to a noob?

[Tweek]

I love threads like this. I really honestly do. some much passion poured in to telling other people what to do and then defending the reasoning.

Government studies are great things. They tell us all sorts of stuff. Usually left out of the report is who did the study and their bias.

Take the study about child safety seats done by our (the US) government. The report found that children were not actually any safer in the child safety seat than they were properly belted in to the cars seat. The government later pulled the report due to fears of the impact. Take NASA's study of air traffic safety - it wasnt released b/c the data it contained would scare the sh!t out of passengers and make them not fly. Even better the existence of the report came to light just weeks before major holiday travel. Greatness.

I don't discount all information I come across but I don't just accept data handed to me. The more I learn the more it becomes clear everything is not what it first appears to be.

Telling anybody what to ride is simply arrogant. Providing actual information about riding a motorcycle (which in fact a lot of people shouldnt do either) would be wiser.

But like I said - I love this thread and its brethen. It doesnt change what I'm going to do tomorrow. It won't actually change what anybody else is going to do tomorrow. It just gets some people twisted. That I love. So please - play on.

[Ninja_Wendy]

Originally Posted by Tweek

Take the study about child safety seats done by our (the US) government. The report found that children were not actually any safer in the child safety seat than they were properly belted in to the cars seat.

Well seeing that not all children FIT within the seat belt would kinda contradict that. Most children under the age of 5 or 6 are not going to fit properly with a seat belt. My 10 year old was in a booster until he was 9 because he is small the seat belt came across his neck.

And I don't know about statistics for motorcycles being biased in this case, they provide the raw data so you can see for yourself. Maybe it is some kind of "conspiracy theory", who am I to say. My point in providing it was that people were throwing around random percentages and guessing on things so I thought it would be nice to provide some actual data to the conversation.

[likearock4x4]

Originally Posted by Ninja_Wendy

Well seeing that not all children FIT within the seat belt would kinda contradict that. Most children under the age of 5 or 6 are not going to fit properly with a seat belt. My 10 year old was in a booster until he was 9 because he is small the seat belt came across his neck.

And I don't know about statistics for motorcycles being biased in this case, they provide the raw data so you can see for yourself. Maybe it is some kind of "conspiracy theory", who am I to say. My point in providing it was that people were throwing around random percentages and guessing on things so I thought it would be nice to provide some actual data to the conversation.

I'm not trying to bash you for providing the stats, Wendy... they prove to be very interesting. And I thank you for digging them up. I'm just saying that people use them and twist them to satisfy their side of the arguements, and if they can't, they simply ignore them.

The arguements here have gone on for what seems like forever, and nobody is going to change their minds. That's all I'm trying to say.

[Tweek]

Originally Posted by Ninja_Wendy

Well seeing that not all children FIT within the seat belt would kinda contradict that. Most children under the age of 5 or 6 are not going to fit properly with a seat belt. My 10 year old was in a booster until he was 9 because he is small the seat belt came across his neck.

IIRC it took in to consideration things like the size of the child. It has some really scary stuff in it. But don't worry. It probably won't apply to you.

Originally Posted by Ninja_Wendy

And I don't know about statistics for motorcycles being biased in this case, they provide the raw data so you can see for yourself. Maybe it is some kind of "conspiracy theory", who am I to say. My point in providing it was that people were throwing around random percentages and guessing on things so I thought it would be nice to provide some actual data to the conversation.

Not a conspiracy theorist here. Just a skeptic who is tired of being lied to when it has the potential of affecting what I will do tomorrow.

I'm pointing out that studies (even when raw data is provided) can be flawed. Got yourself a masters degree in science? Unless you do analyzing and drawing conclusions from the study and its raw data is really difficult. It's also difficult to determine if the study's fundamental assumptions are flawed or not. That said - yeah - people ought to be really careful flinging statistics around. Most of the time when people being throwing numbers around they're made up, misrepresented, used out of context, or the number itself was just plane wrong.

so lets keep the post wh0ring going.

BTW - anybody actually think this thread will prevent the next crop of n00bs from posting the usual stream of "I'm a paraplegic anorexic and I've never ridden a motorcycle before but I want to start and I want to buy this really cool ZX6. What color should I get?".

Is there anyway we can start a pool on it? Anyway we can get a count on the number of n00b threads for 2004, 2005, 2006 and this year so we can make an average and then see if 2008 is higher or lower. Probably set a start and end date too so we don't have to count all year.

just a thought.

[bennice]

Originally Posted by Tweek

I love threads like this. I really honestly do. some much passion poured in to telling other people what to do and then defending the reasoning.

Poking thru what myself and others have been said, I didn't see where any of us were telling other people what to do. My understanding is that this was about people's recommendations, and I think everyone who has participated has made their case as to what they recommended one way or the other.

Will people listen? Some will, maybe, but definitely not all, and probably not most.

The title "Would you recommend a 600cc supersport to a noob?" and the ensuing poll is just that - a poll. I see people's reasoning for believing it's fine, and I have concurred that for SOME people it is - but not ALL, and not even MOST. So it's up to the potential rider, and I won't even call them a "rider" because a person without any experience is just a person on a motorcycle IMO - I was once one of them.

Fact is, everyone can stand to learn a thing or three about riding - even the most experienced riders will tell you that (unless they truly believe their shizz don't stink). The people who come here do so with the intention of learning and interacting with fellow riders, so all in all I'd say this thread was a success despite our passionate stances.

[bennice]

Originally Posted by Kevorkian

What newbs are we discussing? Fireplug and Erv were newbs once too, and I as well, and I still am. Tho I am on a ZZR, I would like to think of that as an SS, pretty close lol.

Just need to feel out the person, find out who they are and let them choose. Give them the pros and cons. I realize this has already been stated, but I will bet $$ that this will flame up again.

I personally don't like hearing people coming on saying that starting on a 600cc or a SS is irresponsible and other things, you need to start on a 250. And anyone telling you that is crazy, or what have you.

Each rider chooses the bike, for the most part. Let's try to guide them based on their ability to take it safe. If we don't know it, let's ask, or get a feel for that peson before jumping to what is the best bike for that person.

I'm not at all saying anyone starting on a SS is irresponsible...I just don't recommend it for reasons stated earlier. However, it IS irresponsible to tell a complete, young newb with zero riding experience (as in, never even sat on a bike or twisted a throttle but looked at one once) and not much more driving experience that it's a good bike to learn on...especially the ones who come around here and demonstrate their squiddliness. Ya know, the ones whose first post is, "Oh, I wanna race my buddy's Camaro - and by the way I've never even ridden a bicycle!"

And yeah, a ZZR is pretty close to a supersport in my book.

[RichLockyer]

Originally Posted by JimmyD

The relevance of this is, were it not law to wear a motorcycle helmet I'd probably not wear mine if I were going to the store for a carton of milk. Not that I don't STRONGLY believe in helmet laws but out of my own cynicism that I'd just plain get lazy on some days and day #(%* it, I dont want to find my helmet under my pile of clothes.

I am strongly opposed to most "nanny" laws.
As stupid as people as a collective may be, unless the results of their actions have a direct physical impact on another person, I feel that they should be free to screw up their own life as much as they would like.... Helmet laws, even anti-smoking laws. Let the BUSINESS decide. If someone doesn't like smoke, they can chose to take their business to one that does not allow smoking. I can understand the frustration of some, but when it really got too extreme was when smoking was banned in BARS.

People love to bring up the financial implications of people who act contrary to these "nanny" laws, but in actuality, while they may quote millions of dollars a year to keep these people alive, those numbers are a drop in the fiscal bucket of the state and federal budgets.
There's over 300 million Americans... how much do people honestly think it costs them, as an individual, to keep an injured person alive?
$20 per year? Likely not even that. Of all of the things that our tax money is used for, THAT is one thing that doesn't bother me.

Anyways, surprisingly, California does not require helmets for bicycle riders over 18.

[daemon]

i took the time to vote "NO"
it is in my opinion that if you were to suggest to someone a bike that you yourself seem fit for their experience,attitude,ability to adhere to the given laws and their undying need for a bike , then you should also be aware that it is possible that you have helped to shape them as a rider (or at least attempt to) this person should also take into affect what you have told them of the dangers of trying their own abilities.
i know of many riders who have started on SS type bikes. most of them are responsible and take the ride as it is and do very little to tempt fate.
others on the other hand have gone out of their way to show how irresposible they can be.\\\\

case in point(told this story many times) young kids back in illinois used to meet on ocassion and decide on a daily itenirary.
one day i was asked to guide them for the day.
i took them way outta town and showed them some of the "ONLY" few twisties i was able to find in our area.
ONE rider was able to hang with me.
the others we waited for better than 5 minutes for.
after the short lesson on "are you a real biker" that said associate and i were able to display, we went to a lonely stretch of straight road that is frequented by very few.
i informed them that this road is clean and seldom looked after(of course a johnnie did show up to prove me wrong)and that this would be a good place to practice their skills of stunting.
never the less we ended up back in town to meet up with a few more and take on a different run that i was not in charge of.
as we left out of town one rider decided that he would attempt a "stand up" while progressing up a hill.
i was pulling the stallbacker duty(slowing traffic) and keeping an eye out .
as he was rolling his 12oclock up the hill he hit a bump in the road that caused him to start to sway and soon crash.
ruining his nearly new R-1....tearing up a good chunk of his flesh in the process as well.
it is the one rare time that i have left a rider on the side of the road...granted we all made sure he was alright,but we still ran off anyway.


this was a case of IRRESPOSIBILITY....i never rode with that group again.
i would meet with them on ocassion,but never joined them for a ride after that incident.

[Ninja_Wendy]

Originally Posted by Tweek

Got yourself a masters degree in science?

No, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express

[Kevorkian]

Originally Posted by bennice

I'm not at all saying anyone starting on a SS is irresponsible...I just don't recommend it for reasons stated earlier. However, it IS irresponsible to tell a complete, young newb with zero riding experience (as in, never even sat on a bike or twisted a throttle but looked at one once) and not much more driving experience that it's a good bike to learn on...especially the ones who come around here and demonstrate their squiddliness. Ya know, the ones whose first post is, "Oh, I wanna race my buddy's Camaro - and by the way I've never even ridden a bicycle!"

And yeah, a ZZR is pretty close to a supersport in my book.

All I am saying, is once they have taken the MSC, there are options out there based on responsibility. Not just the 250 or 650r.

Most of the people coming here asking for advice have actually sat on a bike.

[hordak]

Originally Posted by JimmyD

That's a problem with the insurance company though. In certain province/states (manufacturer supplied) HP is used to calculate your insurance premiums, at least in part. In others, paint color can be used to determine cost. Of course, the only way insurance companies would be consistant is if (GASP!) the government became involved, and we don't want that.



The only problem I have with people quoting the Hurt report for any reason is that specific statistics, like you've pointed out, no longer apply to the industry. For that matter, they didn't apply to the industry in 1985, let alone today. The ideas are the same (having to do with helmets, gear, types of collisions) but not things like bikes on the road, average age of riders, things like that.

The MAIDS report as well as the COST report still state that (I forget the exact number) somewhere around 75% of accidents are from cars turning in the way of motorcycles in traffic, and far less are because of single rider accidents.

For some reason this doesn't sound right to me because IIRC I read that most accidents are single vehicle (aka the bike). Maybe that's within the first 6 months of ownership, I dunno.




Germany has HP restrictions on new riders and they're also home to the autobahn. If an 18 year old german with a restricted bike can do it, I'm pretty sure they can do it on our side of the pond. An EX500 is only putting out 50hp and they're capable of 130mph. Regardless of where you live, you still aren't allowed to speed?

According to Beat the queues on two wheels — Parking for Bikes British commuters have the highest commute times in Europe, with a quarter of commuters on the road /rails for over 2 hours a day. Surely we're not that spoiled as North Americans that we can't drive 20 miles on a restricted bike?



I don't think you understand how tiered licensing works. It goes something like this. New rider at 16 takes his motorcycling exam and road test. He is given an A1 license, which limits him to 125cc or 11KW (about 15 hp). He rides this until he's 18, and then he is given another road test. He then has an A2 license which limits him to anything under 35KW (around 47HP) with no CC requirement. This means you can ride any bike as long as you buy a restrictor kit to keep the bike at 47 hp.

You MUST have your A2 for 2-3 years before you can get your unrestricted A license, allowing you to ride whatever you like.

This has no effect on anyone who already has a license, nor should it. Some licensing systems only apply to younger riders anyway. If you're over 24 there's no restrictions placed on you.


It's still a free market. Japan has a three stage licensing system, seperate licenses for <125, <400, and a third with no restrictions. You know what? Japan has a far larger amount of models available as far as motorcycles go, because they have to cater to these different licenses. Just like California still has a large and healthy selection of vehicles even though they're (I think) the only state that has extra emissions equipment.

It's also not like you are being forced into buying any model or brand. I'm not an expert but most models can be restricted to the 47hp standard. As far as the 125cc bikes are concerned, there are tons on the used market.



Neit. Canada's had things like helmet laws for decades and we're hardly what you would call a communist paradise. Germany has horsepower restrictions on new riders and they've got one of the world's best economies. I'm pretty sure they're a democratic, capitalistic society.

Gotta apologize for my last post though. I was a jackass but I'd been drinking! It's a good debate so far and I understand that I'm not going to change your mind, nor are you going to change mine, unless you really hit me with something good!

If your stats are right then like I said the majority of accidents are caused by things outside of the riders control and I don't think tiered licence would do much. I would love to see a study done that just focused on the at fault rider accidents to see age, power, experience etc. How many of those at fault are caused by, observation failure, drinking ,taking a turn to fast (things that could happen on any bike) compared to Opps too much throttle.(which could happen on any bike but more likely on super sports.
I stand behind my opinion that someone who will drive recklessly in 2nd or 3rd on a super sport would do the same thing in 5th or 6th on a 33 hp 250 which will still get them fast enough to kill themselves however I have no problem with tiered restriction licensing on the under 18 crowd since they are not adults. If I remember right that is actually in affect in 12 states here in the US.(Not sure if it has had an effect one way or the other) But seeing as anyone over the age of 18 can take a written then driving test and buy a 300 hp sports car or a suv weighing 7190 lbs then wipe out a family of 4 without having to work their way up I'm not too concerned with protecting a squid from himself.
Don't worry about it. I don't take anything I read on the internet too seriously.

[bennice]

Originally Posted by Kevorkian

All I am saying, is once they have taken the MSC, there are options out there based on responsibility. Not just the 250 or 650r.

Most of the people coming here asking for advice have actually sat on a bike.

And here's where we can agree to disagree. Have you seen some of the people who come out of the MSF BRC course (assuming that's what you mean by MSC)? Getting through the class doesn't make anyone capable of handling a more powerful bike than before they started.

Where I will agree with you is that the 250 and 650 are not the only options out there, and responsibility is part of choosing a bike for ANY level of rider.

[Kevorkian]

Originally Posted by bennice

And here's where we can agree to disagree. Have you seen some of the people who come out of the MSF BRC course (assuming that's what you mean by MSC)? Getting through the class doesn't make anyone capable of handling a more powerful bike than before they started.

Where I will agree with you is that the 250 and 650 are not the only options out there, and responsibility is part of choosing a bike for ANY level of rider.

Oh yeah, I took the Motorcycle Safety Course. As I passed, I was still a bit leary of what I could actually do. I was pretty much amazed I passed, being drunk and all(joking). But I passed and the instructor said - some of you are ready for the streets, some, parking lots.

I felt I was in the class of the parking lot. Did that with Dad's T-100 Bonnie and that got way too boring very quickly(no offense Bonnie). So I got my ZZR. Played with that in the parking lot, now we are talking(once again no offense).

Point is, the MSF, MSC gives you an idea of riding in general. It lets the rider know where they are at skill wise and what they need to work on. Responsibility plays the key factor. That is really the bottom line regardless of what bike they get. My dealer which I am friends with told me to get the 07 ZX-14. That was their reccommendation. Crazy!! could be interesting tho lol.

I did a ton of research and fell in love with my butterfly, 07 ZZR600. She means the world to me, and I treat her as such. I wanted the Ninja 6 but didn't think it was in my budget, tho I could afford it, I couldn't justify the 3-4 grand extra.

Am I responsible? I think so, pay my bills on time, no car accidents, etc... - like others have said, that makes you responsible lol....

I played in the parking lot, did the back roads. But I have taken her from 60-110 at the flick of the wrist at an early time in my riding life. That was fun! And I will push her to her limit, you can bet that.

The raised 2 inch pavement on the interstate @ 60mph sucked arse and scared the shizzle outta me, thought I was done for, cc size wouldn't have mattered in that situation.

Just saying a 250 or 650r isn't the solution for every rider. Jumping on posters saying a 600cc might be a good way to look isn't always the "wrong" way to go.

I love my butterfly and she is a perfect fit for me, maybe not for others. But she will suit me, and me her, fine for years to come.

[bennice]

Originally Posted by Kevorkian

Oh yeah, I took the Motorcycle Safety Course. As I passed, I was still a bit leary of what I could actually do. I was pretty much amazed I passed, being drunk and all(joking). But I passed and the instructor said - some of you are ready for the streets, some, parking lots.

I felt I was in the class of the parking lot. Did that with Dad's T-100 Bonnie and that got way too boring very quickly(no offense Bonnie). So I got my ZZR. Played with that in the parking lot, now we are talking(once again no offense).

Point is, the MSF, MSC gives you an idea of riding in general. It lets the rider know where they are at skill wise and what they need to work on. Responsibility plays the key factor. That is really the bottom line regardless of what bike they get. My dealer which I am friends with told me to get the 07 ZX-14. That was their reccommendation. Crazy!! could be interesting tho lol.

I did a ton of research and fell in love with my butterfly, 07 ZZR600. She means the world to me, and I treat her as such. I wanted the Ninja 6 but didn't think it was in my budget, tho I could afford it, I couldn't justify the 3-4 grand extra.

Am I responsible? I think so, pay my bills on time, no car accidents, etc... - like others have said, that makes you responsible lol....

I played in the parking lot, did the back roads. But I have taken her from 60-110 at the flick of the wrist at an early time in my riding life. That was fun! And I will push her to her limit, you can bet that.

The raised 2 inch pavement on the interstate @ 60mph sucked arse and scared the shizzle outta me, thought I was done for, cc size wouldn't have mattered in that situation.

Just saying a 250 or 650r isn't the solution for every rider. Jumping on posters saying a 600cc might be a good way to look isn't always the "wrong" way to go.

I love my butterfly and she is a perfect fit for me, maybe not for others. But she will suit me, and me her, fine for years to come.

Trust me, I get what you're saying, and I get the whole other side of the argument. Road hazards, foolish riding, respect for the power of a sportbike, and discipline...those things are just part of the overall equation. Without knowing a person's skill or their exposure to motorcycles or even driving, how could you recommend a bike capable of the acceleration that all recent generations of supersports can deliver? Why recommend something that really does require additional skill above and beyond what a run-of-the-mill motorcycle needs in order to ride proficiently?

In your MSF class, they taught that a big part of riding successfully is about minimizing risks, right? Do you not agree that putting 100+ HP in an unskilled fist is an additional risk?

This doesn't mean that other bikes are somehow safer than others - I don't believe that. A safe bike is one that functions properly IMO. But the point is, until a newb has some context as to what riding a motorcycle is REALLY like, then they may be best off figuring out all that stuff on something less apt to put them on their back if they make a mistake.

There are a few Youtube videos out there of what I'm talking about. One in particular that I remember, this guy with a GSXR lets his buddy try his bike for the first time. His buddy obviously had never ridden before. He hops on the bike and pins the throttle back and takes off. Bike wheelies, dumps newb on the ground, bike crashes, newb says he "only gave it a little throttle," bike owner laughs and informs him that he had the throttle almost fully open, owner inspects totaled bike, video ends. I'll see if I can find it sometime and post the link.

BTW - glad you like your butterfly. ZZR's are one of my favorites. The shop owner that tried to sell you a 14 obviously cared nothing about your safety, and isn't paid to do so. I'd steer clear of that person if you ever go back there. Those are the kinds of people that would sell you something used as new, and then not refund your money when you brought it back.

[likearock4x4]

Originally Posted by bennice

Trust me, I get what you're saying, and I get the whole other side of the argument. Road hazards, foolish riding, respect for the power of a sportbike, and discipline...those things are just part of the overall equation. Without knowing a person's skill or their exposure to motorcycles or even driving, how could you recommend a bike capable of the acceleration that all recent generations of supersports can deliver? Why recommend something that really does require additional skill above and beyond what a run-of-the-mill motorcycle needs in order to ride proficiently?

In your MSF class, they taught that a big part of riding successfully is about minimizing risks, right? Do you not agree that putting 100+ HP in an unskilled fist is an additional risk?

This doesn't mean that other bikes are somehow safer than others - I don't believe that. A safe bike is one that functions properly IMO. But the point is, until a newb has some context as to what riding a motorcycle is REALLY like, then they may be best off figuring out all that stuff on something less apt to put them on their back if they make a mistake.

There are a few Youtube videos out there of what I'm talking about. One in particular that I remember, this guy with a GSXR lets his buddy try his bike for the first time. His buddy obviously had never ridden before. He hops on the bike and pins the throttle back and takes off. Bike wheelies, dumps newb on the ground, bike crashes, newb says he "only gave it a little throttle," bike owner laughs and informs him that he had the throttle almost fully open, owner inspects totaled bike, video ends. I'll see if I can find it sometime and post the link.

BTW - glad you like your butterfly. ZZR's are one of my favorites. The shop owner that tried to sell you a 14 obviously cared nothing about your safety, and isn't paid to do so. I'd steer clear of that person if you ever go back there. Those are the kinds of people that would sell you something used as new, and then not refund your money when you brought it back.

Bennice, that was very well state. Very nice.

[NCDave]

Originally Posted by Ninja_Wendy

As a responsible citizen, I am going to have to come to your house confiscate your 650 from you

to borrow a phrase, you can have it when you pry my cold dead fingers from the grips!

[hordak]

Originally Posted by bennice

.

There are a few Youtube videos out there of what I'm talking about. One in particular that I remember, this guy with a GSXR lets his buddy try his bike for the first time. His buddy obviously had never ridden before. He hops on the bike and pins the throttle back and takes off. Bike wheelies, dumps newb on the ground, bike crashes, newb says he "only gave it a little throttle," bike owner laughs and informs him that he had the throttle almost fully open, owner inspects totaled bike, video ends. I'll see if I can find it sometime and post the link.

Ironically the camera man gives better advice then the bikes owner.

YouTube - Motorcycle Crash

[RichLockyer]

Yup, a lot of MSF instructors tell their graduates "Congratulations, you are now qualified to ride a 250cc cruiser up to 3rd gear around an empty parking lot"

Others will say "Congratulations, you now qualify for a license to learn how to ride a motorcycle"

[waltdisney]

I have changed my mind on this topic.

I now feel strongly that all newbies should learn not just on a measly little 600 SS bike, but instead a minimum of 1000 SS bike, also turboed and NOS on it.

They should learn to ride this bike in a snow blizzard, and not be allowed to do under 250 MPH, and should be doubling their Grandmother the whole time as well.

That sounds plenty safe to me.

[Ninja_Wendy]

Originally Posted by hordak

Ironically the camera man gives better advice then the bikes owner.

YouTube - Motorcycle Crash

I've seen that one before "don't even give it gas!!!"

Guys do the craziest stuff sometimes. They gave their friend almost NO instruction whatsoever and let him almost kill himself and then they thought it was the funniest thing they ever saw.