Would you recommend a 600cc supersport to a noob?

[stefano]

Originally Posted by ervins

I think Stefano and I had this logical argument one time....

Same 20mph twisty road...600 in 2nd gear 250 on 4th? (what gear you guys in?) Equal skills...600 grabs brakes and slides...250 rider grabs brakes and slides...Both crash...WTF did CC have to do with that crash? Nothing it was the rider...
That is what I thought...Next.

Nah bro, that was your answer to the argument. Which I AGREE TO. I AGREE. IF THE RIDER IS "LOOKING FOR IT" HE CAN GET HURT ON ANY BIKE.

But it is YOU who fails to see the "other side of the argument", not the majority of us. Take the same example, slightly modified:

Both riders decide to test the limit of their bike and hammer the throttle coming out of a corner. The 250 rider hammers it and nothing happens because his bike does not have the power or the torque to lose traction under acceleration in that particular corner. The 600 rider hammers it, the rear wheel spins because it DOES have the power and the torque to lose traction under acceleration in that particular corner, and he highsides and hurts himself.

Don't you get it? The less power/torque you have on tap, THE LESS CHANCES YOU HAVE OF GETTING INTO TROUBLE - WHETHER YOU DECIDE TO BE STUPID OR NOT. The same example I just made applies to any situation where the rider makes an innocent mistake as well. There's just no getting around that man, to deny that is really to deny the obvious.

As others have told you, I respect you bro and I agree on pretty much everything you have to say - except this argument. I'm sorry to be so upfront with you, but most of the assumptions underlying your arguments are just WRONG... they're plain wrong.

And considering that the message is coming from your "friends" on this forum who know you (from the forum anyway) and respect you, then maybe you should step back for a minute and think that maybe, just maybe, for once... you might actually be off track.

Peace.

[xeon]

Originally Posted by ervins

Someone make a poll and ask should we all start teaching our kids to drive small underpowered cars which are manual.
I think Stefano and I had this logical argument one time....

Same 20mph twisty road...600 in 2nd gear 250 on 4th? (what gear you guys in?) Equal skills...600 grabs brakes and slides...250 rider grabs brakes and slides...Both crash...WTF did CC have to do with that crash? Nothing it was the rider...
That is what I thought...Next.

Come back when you guys have a similar scenario to elaborate on how the 250 could have changed that situation.

Kids have no business learning to drive behind the wheel of a 500+ hp vehicle, that's for sure. I'm not sure how that relates to this exactly, but I think many things in life should be approached with some amount of caution as opposed to jumping into the frying pan with both feet as they say.

In regards to your scenario, it is a poor argument on why one should ride a less powerful bike to start out with. Locking your wheel/s up in a turn is just a bad thing to do. You might as well argue that you're as likely to die if you get T-boned by a tractor trailer while on a bike regardless of CCs.

Some of it is on the rider, true; a "beginner bike" is good in the fact that it also has some built in limitations. A new rider has no experience, so those limitations aren't bad things IMO. Someone who can hardly shift gears sitting on a 400lb. machine that can go 0-60 in about 3 seconds and top out over 150mph doesn't sound like a match made in heaven to me.

Here's a real scenario where a rider admits they weren't ready for a R1. She obviously feels her 250 might have suited her better in the scenario.

reasons to start small - Sportbikes.net

[Uthor]

Originally Posted by ervins

Also, if you intent is to ride a 600 one day why for God's sake start ona 250? Then work your way up? Your 250 is nothing like a 600 in regards to power...Yeah you learn to shift, brake, steer...Then what?

So you can learn to brake, shift, steer, select the right gear, learn to watch traffic, learn not to twist the throttle when hitting an unexpected bump, learn not to twist the throttle when grabbing the brake, learn not to dump the clutch, learn proper following distances that allow emergency maneuvers, learn how to do emergency maneuvers without dumping your bike, learn to countersteer, learn to counterlean, learn to see the dangers in the road, learn the proper line around a corner, etc, etc, etc, etc all without having to worry about not getting the bike above 6k rpm.

****ing up your throttle slightly while learning to do these things as second nature will hurt you on the street. Learn on a more forgiving powerplant, and you will learn the fundamentals as a reaction that you don't have to think about so when you finally get on the SS, all you have to really worry about is learning the power delivery from the engine/transmission. There's enough for a new rider to think as it is.

If the n00b is never going to leave the track, I can see some argument for learning on a 600 cc bike, but in the real world with different dangers and a lot more on a person's mind, learn small and move up.

[JimmyD]

Originally Posted by ervins

Anyone who think that a 250 is all they need are in massive denial or live in sticks. No way a 250 is all you need...I see 250s here and they are all in the right lane...No way can they keep up with steady CA traffic...Did I mention the windy days?

You've never so much as rode a 250 and you're going to tell everyone in the world that a 250 isn't for them? WTF? One of my MSF instructors rides a 250 Rebel! That bike has about 15 hp to the rear wheel! And it's all she wants!

Some people don't want to overcompensate for things with a 400 pound ***** replacement between their legs! Why do you think people will automatically NEED to move up from a tiny little 250? I rode an 80cc 2stroke dirtbike for years and didn't once think "man this bike is boring, I need a 450 because it's bigger".

And seeing as a 250 sportbike has the same roll on acceleration as most production passenger cars I don't understand why it can't keep up with any kind of traffic. In fact, this is another argument! A 250 rider isn't going to rely on the bike to get their *** out of trouble when they're riding in a cager's blind spot. They're going to AVOID the blind spot so they don't get creamed!

Originally Posted by ervins

Same 20mph twisty road...600 in 2nd gear 250 on 4th? (what gear you guys in?) Equal skills...600 grabs brakes and slides...250 rider grabs brakes and slides...Both crash...WTF did CC have to do with that crash? Nothing it was the rider...
That is what I thought...Next.

Come back when you guys have a similar scenario to elaborate on how the 250 could have changed that situation.

Your argument is flawed. Here's a situation for you.

Two riders are on the highway, going highway speeds. One is wearing a helmet, the other isn't. Both riders get caught behind a semi that jack-knifes and crash into it at 50 mph. Both riders die. WTF did helmets have to do with that crash?

Come back telling when you have a similar scenario to elaborate on how the helmet could have changed that situation. If you can. It's a pretty loaded question.

[Tweek]

I love these threads. So much passion poured in to telling other people what they ought to do. Is there a sweeter wine on earth?

Perhaps a different poll is called for: Choose your prefered scenario:
a) n00bs trots down to their local Kawi dealer, scores a shiny (and finally sexy looking) 2008 Ninja 250 and rides it to his local starbucks hangout to show his friends for the Kawi forum.
b) n00b takes MSF class,passes with flying colors gets his license, drives his truck to his local Kawi store picks up a shiny new ZX10 (no Fing red - idiots) puts it in the bed, takes it home, spends an hour a day in the culdesac practicing MSF type stuff for a month, goes to a few track days with riding schools. Then finally after a month of hard work and practice rides it to his local starbucks to show his friends from the Kawi forum only to be greated with their disapproving looks.

of the two I'd prefer to ride with #2. You guys might approve of #1 b/c he bought a sensible bike and would prefer a hybrid of #1 & #2 (practice + 250cc) but I didnt offer that.

As I continue to get more experience my gut tells me more and more that the rider is the important feature in the equation. Yeah a 250 won't throw you on your *** for a dumb mistake. Take the full throttle corner exit strategy mentioned earlier. A ZX6 can spin up the rear tire under the right circumstances while it is leaned over and you're making the drive out of a corner. A 250 wont except in extreme circumstances. So your n00b rider goes to a track day and he does the turn #6 at MSR's new course (hair pin left going up hill). Bike lacks power so he rolls the throttle to the stop and holds it their. The bike wont accelerate until he hits the flat. n00b gets wise and buys a new weapon - a ZX6. Same turn, same n00b with early throttle skill, new bike - n00b learns to fly b/c his 250 didn't throw him on his *** for his lack of grace.

The claim that the 250’s margins are lower so it’s safer is a false sense of security. Once you get up to 30mph you are already in the danger zone. You whack a wall at 30mph you’re screwed. The speed at which you arrived at 30mph doesn’t really matter.

The only reason I’m participating in this is because I’m avoiding doing real work. Other than ticking off people who are passionate about this; I don’t care. I wouldn’t presume to recommend a bike to anyone (at least not in this context). I don’t care if we are talking about a 250, 600 or liter bike. The person is going to buy what makes them happy. What I will recommend to a n00b is going to school and learning to ride and spending a lot of time early on just practicing. You might look like an idiot weaving around an empty parking lot, but it might save your life. I’d also recommend doing a few track schools as soon as possible. People want to ride fast so you ought to learn how to do it properly.

[cmptrmn.1]

Tweek, very good answer. I think what you are seeing here though is people that we have no clue about, that come onto this forum and ask "I want to get a SS as my first bike". Will it go faster than my friends Camaro?" You have to make judgements to answer. Does this person sound responsible? Has he/she ever ridden before? Based on the persons post, I would say they are NOT responsible and probably have NEVER ridden before. You recommend the MSF course and practice practice practice. Do you remember when you first rode? Did you ever look at the curb? Which direction did you go? We all probably did something stupid when we started learning. But, with a 150 mph rocket between a noobs legs, if they are not responsible to practice in a culdesac (which is rare), bad things happen. There was the noob who recently picked up his GSX 600 at the dealership. Gave it a little too much throttle. Hit parked truck. When you are just learning, being jerked backwards tends to pull your hands backwards, too. That usually results in giving more throttle. But, again, we have to take this ALL into context. I have a friend that just took the msf course. I would have NO problem with him riding anything. But, then, I have seen him ride on someone else's bike a couple times.

[xeon]

Tweek, you are right... as you mature as a rider it becomes more about the rider. That much I can agree with you on, but you also have to keep perspective of a new rider. Your option b rider sounds great, but not very realistic. IMO, 99.9% they're both at Starbucks the same night after buying their bikes.

The practicing, MSF and track days are all excellent things for new riders as well. I think what I'm going to do is come up with a statement that I can paste into threads that ask for advice on what one should get.

[Tweek]

(I know, I know - should be debugging my crappy code but I dont wanna)

cmptrmn.1 - those guys scare me and its a waste of time to even respond to that. "Will my ZX6 beat Freddy's Roush Mustang?" should be answered with - too close to say get a ZX10 to be sure.

xeon - The weekness of my argument is that it is based on a person with average intelligence and a strong desire to live long enough to see some boobies (besides on the internet). Perhaps I'm mistaken in believing this is a common trait.

[bennice]

Originally Posted by Tweek

(I know, I know - should be debugging my crappy code but I dont wanna)

cmptrmn.1 - those guys scare me and its a waste of time to even respond to that. "Will my ZX6 beat Freddy's Roush Mustang?" should be answered with - too close to say get a ZX10 to be sure.

xeon - The weekness of my argument is that it is based on a person with average intelligence and a strong desire to live long enough to see some boobies (besides on the internet). Perhaps I'm mistaken in believing this is a common trait.

HAHAAA!! Tweek, your posts are great! Keep 'em coming!


I think you hit it on the head with this though. Those guys looking to beat Fred's stang are the ones that worry me most. Any reasonable person won't likely try to start off on a bike that doesn't fit within their capabilities. As a parent of a teenager (soon to be two of them), I'm sad to say that an alarming number of kids these days don't have that kind of sense, and they're the ones that want (and sometimes get) that Gixxer 1000 or R1 for their 18th b-day. They think they're indestructible - not much different than kids back in the day when I was young, but kids today take it to another level.

From what I can tell, most 25+ newbies will either:
1.) Start smaller (not necessarily a 250, but generally not a 636 either), learn and move up to something else.
2.) Go for the gusto, get the "big" bike that they lust after, learn how to ride and love it, go on to enjoy the hobby for a good, long time
3.) Get the big bike, get in trouble and scare the crap outta themselves and sell the bike or trade it in on something "more tame" or quit riding all together.

I just stopped by two dealerships on my way home today. Both had ZX-10's that had less than 5000 miles. One was on consignment by a guy who they said was getting out of riding all together. The other was a trade in from a guy who rode the tires to the point of chicken strips, then decided he wanted a cruiser instead.


Now go debug your crappy code, you virus writer!

[cmptrmn.1]

Tweek, That is a great answer.

[A2rider]

Tweek, you have made some good points. I don't get involved in this section very often, mainly because I've mostly ridden a cruiser. I live with a sportbike devotee, and most of my time riding has been with sportbikes.

I really don't care what you ride, if you don't respect the machine, practice, practice, practice, you will end up eating the pavement.

Statistics show that no matter what you ride, you are more likely to go down the 1st year you ride. It seems to me that sportbike riders put more miles on their bikes that cruisers do ( let the flaming begin), and they seem to have less accidents due to this fact. And due to the unforgiving nature of sportbikes, they either get better at it, or give it up due to accident, injury or just plain fear.

[A2rider]

And to be honest, how many threads do see on how that 1500 cruiser scared the crap out of someone, and they went and bought a 900? LOL

[bennice]

Originally Posted by ervins

...Did I mention the windy days?

For the benefit of others who may not know, this is a common misconception on the 250R specifically.

Is it affected more than, say, a ZZR or ZX6R by strong wind?
YES. But the affects are not much different than a 650R. It's probably comparable to ANY light-weight bike with an upright seating position.

And YES, I DO have experience with all the machines mentioned above.

But if you can't learn to compensate for that, then you probably shouldn't ride - at least not on windy days, and have not developed skills necessary to safely ride a supersport.

Sorry Erv - not picking on you or anything, but I had to respond to this little bit of mis-information.

And again, this is not to say that the 250 is for everyone, and is all anyone should start on. I cannot stress this enough.

[daemon]

all praise darwinism.

actually i will get back to this thread later

[waltdisney]

Originally Posted by A2rider

And to be honest, how many threads do see on how that 1500 cruiser scared the crap out of someone, and they went and bought a 900? LOL

What that slow revving, 55 or 60 HP does not scare the crap out of you.

[A2rider]

Originally Posted by daemon

all praise darwinism.

actually i will get back to this thread later

MIKE! Like your avatar!

[A2rider]

Originally Posted by crazyinkamloops

What that slow revving, 55 or 60 HP does not scare the crap out of you.

You'd be surprised how many people trade their 650's in for an 1100, and swear that's sooooooooo much faster. I love working in a dealership!

[Tweek]

my other client saved the day - they need me to change some maps! no debugging for me.... yet. maybe after dinner. Splitting my brain bewteen two clients is a pain.

Oh and by then House will be on. I love House. Can't wait to see what he does next.

I think my ADD is acting up or I'm trying to avoid something. Hard to tell the difference though.