Would you recommend a 600cc supersport to a noob?

[ervins]

Your reasoning on the last part is majorly flawed. We are not talking about helmets Next try. Stay to the topic...Makes for a good conversation. We can talk about helmets in another thread. I promise. I am all about helmets. The other question is not loaded because one has better brakes than the other bike, but the rider grabbed to much of it...The other guy was in the wrong gear...As you can see, rider error...two more tries.

As for compensating...Believe me bro, no compensation needed. My W2s and my lovely lifestyle means I need none of that. However, I will say this...I have not gone the route through 2 years here of saying that a 250 is a POS or 250 riders are idiots. The one time I rode with one on a group ride, out of everyone, I made the effort to talk to the newb... I would just wish many including yourself would not PUSH the whole 250 thing to the point where you make it sound like it prevents crashes, drops, stupidity after they have ridden it X amount of miles, or will prevent a potentially fatal death, etc...Because riding a 250 WON'T...You agree? If not, let me know and we can fly somewhere and discuss this in therapy. Because nothing in this beautiful world will stop anything bad from happening except smarts. I would more like to see as I have said in past discussions like this, pluses for getting a 250 and minuses for getting one. Get both sides of the story. No I have not ridden a 250 and will never ride one. or even push one on someone...Would I get a 250 for my wife? Yes...She is 5'7", slim and fit but not strong, 115lbs, skittish, and has never driven manual transmission. Now would I recommend a 250 to a friend who is 6ft and 215lbs? No. There are reasons for every recommendation...If it were a stranger, I would tell them pros and cons for a 600. I do not know what the pros and cons (Ok I do) of a 250. I know my wife and I know my friend. You have not ridden a 10R and maybe never will. However, I can tell you that I did start on a 636 and was fine...Only crash was on track and was a result of a very gusty day that took me on the track after fabulous riding. Before that, I rode that 636 almost daily and loved it like it needed to be and as a result, it loved me back...That was me...Can that be you? No (maybe) because you didn't on a 600 for reasons that I can respect. But that was me and that is an example I am showing that yes, it can be done. However, as I have said in the past (search please) if I met an idiot who was talking like they were the Sh*t...I would definitely say, grow up and go to school and then think of a bike...Now if you rode on a 250 and then went to a 600 then share that...If you have then you are the man...If you have not gone through that, then don't tell me that I am full of it...Because I am stating and backing up that starting on a 600 can be done...If done right. We are all riders...That is cool. I will never tell someone something I would not do myself...That is part of my role at work. I practice what I preach. Be smart, be safe, and be responsible. If you can not be any of those three things then don't ride is a better response.

No hating here either. Not my style...You guys are winning the poll. Beer on me if I ever meet you all.

Bennice..How do you think I could be angry at you bro. I was swamped today so sorry for late response. Cmon man...Do I seem shallow? I do not come off like that at all. It is a forum...I do not come here with hate. I come here for knowledge and to see what is going on with my fellow Kawi riders, and to help...Jukief did when I came here why should I not do the same? Love my people!

Originally Posted by JimmyD

You've never so much as rode a 250 and you're going to tell everyone in the world that a 250 isn't for them? WTF? One of my MSF instructors rides a 250 Rebel! That bike has about 15 hp to the rear wheel! And it's all she wants!

Some people don't want to overcompensate for things with a 400 pound ***** replacement between their legs! Why do you think people will automatically NEED to move up from a tiny little 250? I rode an 80cc 2stroke dirtbike for years and didn't once think "man this bike is boring, I need a 450 because it's bigger".

And seeing as a 250 sportbike has the same roll on acceleration as most production passenger cars I don't understand why it can't keep up with any kind of traffic. In fact, this is another argument! A 250 rider isn't going to rely on the bike to get their *** out of trouble when they're riding in a cager's blind spot. They're going to AVOID the blind spot so they don't get creamed!



Your argument is flawed. Here's a situation for you.

Two riders are on the highway, going highway speeds. One is wearing a helmet, the other isn't. Both riders get caught behind a semi that jack-knifes and crash into it at 50 mph. Both riders die. WTF did helmets have to do with that crash?

Come back telling when you have a similar scenario to elaborate on how the helmet could have changed that situation. If you can. It's a pretty loaded question.

[eidian]

ervins: Everyone else is too scared to tell you the truth about what makes your reasoning flawed...so I have taken it upon myself to teach you the error of your ways:

You give people--in general--way too much credit when it comes to intelligence. When you talk to people you expect them to be of reasonable intelligence (not an unreasonable expectation) but in reality, 4 out five people are morons. So in reality, you should go the "safe" route and tell people to not get a SuperSport as their first bike (a blanket policy that errors on the side of caution).

And I'll take you up on that beer the next time that you're in LA...but could you please stay somewhere closer to the OC? I really wanted to meet you back in October but there was no way that I could've gotten to Santa Monica in time to see you Friday evening with all of the traffic. I figure that it would've taken well over an hour to get from Anaheim to Santa Monica...even on my bike.

[RichLockyer]

Originally Posted by xeon

How can you assume someone else has the responsibility to start on a SS

Originally Posted by eidian

I have a question for you honestlyinsane (and for everyone else that has the notion that people "will get sick of a 250"): Isn't it better for someone to learn on a smaller cc bike and "get bored" with it in a year rather than to get a SuperSport and possibly be dead in a week?

Originally Posted by crazyinkamloops

I agree in part....but the supersport bikes have no built in forgiveness.
If you are not smooth and ready for the incredibly fast responses of a Supersport, you are likely to drop it, or worse hit something.

+10,000

As D-Day said.... It depends.
As a general statement "The 600cc Supersport is an acceptable 1st bike for a new rider with no experience"? Absolutely not.

There are nearly always exceptions to "rules", especially when it comes to something like this that is so dependent upon maturity, reflexes, vision, hearing, and natural ability. Some of those things can cancel each other out though.... the relative maturity of a 50 year old newbie compared to a 22 y/o is going to be countered by reflexes, vision, and hearing.
That's not to say that a 50 y/o can't pick up a 600 and in a year be an ace with it on the track... of course it can be done....

The main difference between big sporties and big cruisers is that the cruiser is not going to be as easy for the rider to "fall behind" and lose control.
They might (okay, WILL) drop it making u-turns, and might (okay, WILL) make the mistake of parking nose-first into a down-hill parking spot... but they aren't going to twist the throttle, pop the clutch, and end up on their a$$ with the bike in the next county. Sure, that has happened to cruiser owners as well (recalling the video of the guy who bought a $30k Harley and lost it in the parking lot), but it is not AS likely to happen, especially to someone who has at the very least taken the MSF class.

With respect to this particular issue, it could be said that the moderately large cruisers such as the Harley touring models, Vulcan 1600/Nomad, etc... are perhaps SAFER than smaller cruisers. The Vulcan 800 can totally SPANK a Vulcan 1500 up to about 90mph... and from what I've been reading and seeing on the road, the 900 might be just as quick. In the twisties, I'm used to seeing the rider behind me fall back a bit as I'm powering out of the corner... Plasma and K6 were right on my fender all the way through Malibu on their 900 Customs.


Again, as a GENERAL STATEMENT, fitting more than 50% of new riders (probably more like 90%), no, a 600cc Supersport is not an acceptable learning machine, any more than a Acura NSX is an acceptable ride for a 16 y/o.

Do I agree with the graduated license requirements in place in some countries? Absolutely not. We should (and at least for now DO) have the freedom to judge our own abilities based on advice from our friends.
Graduated licensing laws smack of big business lobbying for laws to help them sell more product... of course, supported by insurance companies who want to protect their margins.

[Tweek]

Originally Posted by eidian

4 out five people are morons. So in reality, you should go the "safe" route and tell people to not get a SuperSport as their first bike (a blanket policy that errors on the side of caution).

hmmm - gotta disagree with the conclusion to this. If true (4/5 moron) then the responsible course of action is to recommend and offer to help pay for a ZX10 immediately. In fact insist they get it right away. Think of it as a retroactive abortion. Its for their own good really.

Originally Posted by eidian

And I'll take you up on that beer the next time that you're in LA...but could you please stay somewhere closer to the OC? I really wanted to meet you back in October but there was no way that I could've gotten to Santa Monica in time to see you Friday evening with all of the traffic. I figure that it would've taken well over an hour to get from Anaheim to Santa Monica...even on my bike.

As for this - if you had a ZX6 or ZX10 then that trip would only take 15 minutes. See there is a good reason to buy a bigger bike.


All better.

[bennice]

Originally Posted by ervins

No hating here either. Not my style...You guys are winning the poll. Beer on me if I ever meet you all.

Bennice..How do you think I could be angry at you bro. I was swamped today so sorry for late response. Cmon man...Do I seem shallow? I do not come off like that at all. It is a forum...I do not come here with hate. I come here for knowledge and to see what is going on with my fellow Kawi riders, and to help...Jukief did when I came here why should I not do the same? Love my people!

Glad to hear that the disagreement didn't rub you the wrong way. Are you shallow? I dunno about that, but one thing you said sticks out in my mind and makes me laugh. Remember this?

Originally Posted by ervins

5'7" with Naploean Syndrome here. Both my 636 and 600rr were tall...I rode the 636 stock height for a year and the 600rr for stock for a month. Looking at it did I have to lower it? No, however, I like to feel comfy at a stop and I live in a hilly area...Heck the Bay Area is all hilly except in the Silicon Valley.

So I think I get your angle a bit better now. You're essentially saying that you recommend a newb that doesn't have the smarts enough to ride a 600 proficiently and safely should grow up and not ride at all until they do...right?

But do you acknowledge that not all sensible people that want to learn how to ride are capable of handling, and may not want to handle a 600cc supersport? Can you agree that none of us NEEDS that kind of power, but we definitely like to have it on tap?

My wife is long legged and strong, and is almost 6 months into learning how to ride on a 650. Had she tried to learn on my 6RR it would have been bad...VERY bad, and it probably would have scared her away from riding. That doesn't make her a squid or suggest lack of smarts on her part. It's just much more power than she needs, much too aggressive riding position, and intimidating to someone completely new to riding.

I still think you should borrow a 250 someday and let her rip thru the twisties a time or two.

[zedx11]

Originally Posted by honestlyinsane

I very rarely see 250's or 500 hundreds . I think with the updated styling the 250 will do better as that was one of the resons my wife hated hers but I still think they need to squeeze some more out of it. If it was such a big market for a 250 sportbike other companies would still offer one also.

in two of the kawasaki shops I have worked in, the 250 is the first one to run out of. you seldom find a new 250 at the dealer at the end of the season around here.

[zedx11]

Originally Posted by ervins

Your first paragraph is what matters...Your wife got sick of it...Getting sick of a bike is not because you have done anything and everything on it...No, it means that the thrill is no longer there. Anyone who think that a 250 is all they need are in massive denial or live in sticks. No way a 250 is all you need...I see 250s here and they are all in the right lane...No way can they keep up with steady CA traffic...Did I mention the windy days? Also, if you intent is to ride a 600 one day why for God's sake start ona 250? Then work your way up? Your 250 is nothing like a 600 in regards to power...Yeah you learn to shift, brake, steer...Then what? You get on that 600 and you are just intimidated by the power that you are rendered noob again. Seriously people there is more to riding than just CCs. If you can't agree on that, then for sure I can not agree with any of this 250 cirque de solei conversation.

I agree with you about the getting sick part. now the rest of it I can't really agree with. everything you learn on a smaller bike gets you ready for a more powerfull bike.

I would say that an older SS say 5 to 10 years old would possibly make a good starter bike. the ZZR 600 was a SS back in the day but today it is very forgiving compared to the modern SS like the ZX6R.

I know Stefeno is going to hit me for that but like I have said before, they are more than likely going to get what ever they want anyway so if I can head them towards something even just a little more forgiving than the ZX/GSXR/YZFR why not?

[zedx11]

Originally Posted by bennice

For the benefit of others who may not know, this is a common misconception on the 250R specifically.

Is it affected more than, say, a ZZR or ZX6R by strong wind?
YES. But the affects are not much different than a 650R. It's probably comparable to ANY light-weight bike with an upright seating position.

And YES, I DO have experience with all the machines mentioned above.

But if you can't learn to compensate for that, then you probably shouldn't ride - at least not on windy days, and have not developed skills necessary to safely ride a supersport.

Sorry Erv - not picking on you or anything, but I had to respond to this little bit of mis-information.

And again, this is not to say that the 250 is for everyone, and is all anyone should start on. I cannot stress this enough.

take the weight off the bars and the wind will not throw you around as much. give it a try. I have and it works. you can put more weight on the bars on the other sportbikes and the wind will throw you around the same.

[zedx11]

Originally Posted by bennice

I still think you should borrow a 250 someday and let her rip thru the twisties a time or two.

and get it on vid.

[stefano]

Originally Posted by zedx11

I know Stefeno is going to hit me for that

You bet!!!

All jokes aside, what I like to see (and we are beginning to see that I think) is that first of all, everyone is conscious that the simple act of recommending a bike to someone is a huge responsibility - you may in the end determine the fate of that person by the advice you give her/him.

Second, it seems clear to everyone that the actual person you are recommending that bike to plays a huge role - if the person is objectively responsible, recommending a bigger bike becomes a lot more natural. If you have doubts on the person's responsibility, the bike you will recommend changes drastically.

All I'm trying to say is that I think it is important that NO BIKER brings across the message, "Hell yeah, start on a ZX-6R, it's a piece of cake, if I did it, so can you!" Because that's not the right message. In my opinion (and I also practice what I preach) whenever you (should you ever do so) recommend such a bike to a beginner, it is your MORAL DUTY to make that person understand exactly the kind of dangers they are going to be running, ESPECIALLY since they will be sitting on something that will much more easily throw you on your a.ss than a smaller bike.

CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG???



Peace.

EDIT: I WIN THE BET, NAA NAA NAA NAA NAA!!!

[daemon]

Originally Posted by A2rider

MIKE! Like your avatar!

thanks tina.
saw it while freda and i were looking for pics of "ded moroz"(russian santa)

Originally Posted by bennice

There's the man! Where ya been???

been kinda busy lately and only having a chance to read and not comment.
i still need to go back a couple pages and read the rest. hopefully tonight after work.

[honestlyinsane]

I think what I get from this is people that want a 250 should get a 250. But I also find that people here don't seem to RECOMMEND anything rather than TELL people what they should ride.
It seems people are generally equate NOOB = squid = young = immature
You might think thats the case but how many people in your msf course would say that too . I know my wife was 36 when she went through it and most people in her class were around her age.
Also I totally disagree with the fact that people have said a cruiser is safer. My wife who has ridden now for 7 yrs will not ride my meanstreak because it weighs too much. She does not have the strength to manuever it properly and if it ever got slightly off center she would go down. Sorry i don't agree that dropping your bike in low speed manuevers is acceptable. I have never dropped mine. So why should a NOOB on a cruiser drop his and think its ok ???
If you did that during licensing you would fail.
Once again I have no issues with people that ride 250's or any other bike for that matter. If it suits you ride it , but if someone that is mature can make that step to a 600. I would never recommend anything bigger or a 700 pond cruiser to a noob. But sorry I am not seeing what you guys see in 600 class. the can be ridden responsible matter of fact if you ride them through the break in period accordingly you will not get anywhere near their powerband.

[bennice]

Originally Posted by honestlyinsane

...sorry I am not seeing what you guys see in 600 class. the can be ridden responsible matter of fact if you ride them through the break in period accordingly you will not get anywhere near their powerband.

Break in period? What's that?

[bennice]

Originally Posted by zedx11

take the weight off the bars and the wind will not throw you around as much. give it a try. I have and it works. you can put more weight on the bars on the other sportbikes and the wind will throw you around the same.

Exactly. It's really not that difficult to learn to deal with the wind, and it's a necessary skill if you want to ride on less than perfect days IMO. And it doesn't matter WHAT you ride. If you don't know how to deal with wind, you risk getting blown off the road (literally) or into oncoming traffic. Head on crash has same end result on a cruiser, sportie, 250, 14, V2K, moded, whatever.

[Tod]

Originally Posted by zedx11

and get it on vid.

+1,000,000

[stefano]

Originally Posted by bennice

Break in period? What's that?

Bwaaaaaaaaaahahahahaha!!!

Hey, I've got an idea. Why not drop this dead and beaten subject and start a whole new forum feud on how to break in a bike?

[ervins]

I agree, most people are who get bikes get bikes to be cool...I went through that in college...Never got one and am happy I did not. Got one over 3 years ago and will say that it was not easy...I will not lie but I learned to ride with conviction, dedication, smarts, safety, and all the goodies to make me a better rider than I was from the day I started. So in essence you are correct. No everyone should or can ride a bike. That though has nothing to do with CCs. That is a personal thing. My job is to train incoming sales reps (it is a shame to try and replicate success)...You do not think I size these new reps up...Heck, I say stuff like - I give her 3 months, he has no more than 6 months...Sometimes you can see the smarts in people...No lie. You can see it by the way they talk, walk, act, etc...There is a bike for everyone. Some will ride cruisers, sportbikes, dirt, etc. The thing is all of those classes have pitfalls that can lead to serious injury or even death. Now to say which is what some people sound like they are saying, that a 250 is the way to go because it can prevent these injuries or deaths is a flat out lie. There are external factors and personal factors that can attribute to that easily on a day by day basis. One day you king of the hill, the next day you can be the village idiot. So yes, I agree with you 100%. I do not give people face to face to much slack...I am actually known to be very brutally upfront. The key is smarts...Not everyone has them and Daemon stated very concisely...Darwinism. Some will, some won't, SO WHAT...Next. I don't do beer as much...Malibu Bay Breeze here please.

By the way, I agree...If I had not ridden my 636 for while, riding the 10R would be a nightmare.

Originally Posted by eidian

ervins: Everyone else is too scared to tell you the truth about what makes your reasoning flawed...so I have taken it upon myself to teach you the error of your ways:

You give people--in general--way too much credit when it comes to intelligence. When you talk to people you expect them to be of reasonable intelligence (not an unreasonable expectation) but in reality, 4 out five people are morons. So in reality, you should go the "safe" route and tell people to not get a SuperSport as their first bike (a blanket policy that errors on the side of caution).

And I'll take you up on that beer the next time that you're in LA...but could you please stay somewhere closer to the OC? I really wanted to meet you back in October but there was no way that I could've gotten to Santa Monica in time to see you Friday evening with all of the traffic. I figure that it would've taken well over an hour to get from Anaheim to Santa Monica...even on my bike.

[ervins]

Originally Posted by Tweek

hmmm - gotta disagree with the conclusion to this. If true (4/5 moron) then the responsible course of action is to recommend and offer to help pay for a ZX10 immediately. In fact insist they get it right away. Think of it as a retroactive abortion. Its for their own good really.




As for this - if you had a ZX6 or ZX10 then that trip would only take 15 minutes. See there is a good reason to buy a bigger bike.


All better.

LOL! A bigger bike lane splitting is nice...Seriously. It is a night and day difference.

[ervins]

Originally Posted by zedx11

I agree with you about the getting sick part. now the rest of it I can't really agree with. everything you learn on a smaller bike gets you ready for a more powerfull bike.

I would say that an older SS say 5 to 10 years old would possibly make a good starter bike. the ZZR 600 was a SS back in the day but today it is very forgiving compared to the modern SS like the ZX6R.

I know Stefeno is going to hit me for that but like I have said before, they are more than likely going to get what ever they want anyway so if I can head them towards something even just a little more forgiving than the ZX/GSXR/YZFR why not?

I hear you bro some bikes are easier to handle than others...The ZX-10R is not an easy bike to ride...The CBR 1000RR is comparitively speaking. The 636 was a powerful bike and if I had started on the CBR 600RR I had after the 636 it might have been a quicker start up time to feeling comfy. That is why I am big on old 600s. two friends learned on older 600s. One started on my 600RR...He crashed it and admitted to the stupidity behind him crashing. We all gave him grief for being stupid as well.

But yes, in the end, people will get what THEY want. I hope they just ride it safely and smartly.

[stefano]

Originally Posted by ervins

I agree, most people are who get bikes get bikes to be cool...I went through that in college...Never got one and am happy I did not. Got one over 3 years ago and will say that it was not easy...I will not lie but I learned to ride with conviction, dedication, smarts, safety, and all the goodies to make me a better rider than I was from the day I started. So in essence you are correct. No everyone should or can ride a bike. That though has nothing to do with CCs. That is a personal thing. My job is to train incoming sales reps (it is a shame to try and replicate success)...You do not think I size these new reps up...Heck, I say stuff like - I give her 3 months, he has no more than 6 months...Sometimes you can see the smarts in people...No lie. You can see it by the way they talk, walk, act, etc...There is a bike for everyone. Some will ride cruisers, sportbikes, dirt, etc. The thing is all of those classes have pitfalls that can lead to serious injury or even death. Now to say which is what some people sound like they are saying, that a 250 is the way to go because it can prevent these injuries or deaths is a flat out lie. There are external factors and personal factors that can attribute to that easily on a day by day basis. One day you king of the hill, the next day you can be the village idiot. So yes, I agree with you 100%. I do not give people face to face to much slack...I am actually known to be very brutally upfront. The key is smarts...Not everyone has them and Daemon stated very concisely...Darwinism. Some will, some won't, SO WHAT...Next. I don't do beer as much...Malibu Bay Breeze here please.

By the way, I agree...If I had not ridden my 636 for while, riding the 10R would be a nightmare.

I agree with everything you wrote except for the parts in bold.

Regarding point 1, yes it does have something to do with cc's. That's why the majority of us are arguing over it until the cows come home. The simple fact of the matter is that the more horsepower/torque something has, the harder it is to control. You watch open-wheeled racing? Ever wonder why there are a gazillion racing categories before getting to F1, starting from 2000cc, 200 hp machines, moving through the infinite categories up to GP2 and then F1? Maybe it's because drivers who aspire to become F1 aces need to PROVE they can handle a car of that potential. Same thing applies to riding bikes. Some people can start out riding big bikes, others just can't. I prefer to be on the safe side in recommending a bike to a beginner.

Regarding point 2, no one on this forum has ever said that a 250 will PREVENT injury or death. What most people are saying (and amazingly, it seems you still find hard to understand) is that a 250, or in any case a bike with less potential than a 600cc supersport, REDUCES the chances of injury or death. I'd be willing to bet a handsome sum of money that if you look at the mortality rates of riders who have died in accidents, the number of deaths on larger cc bikes would be higher than that on smaller cc bikes (probably overwhelmingly so). Would anyone have any idea (if at all possible) of how to get those type of statistics?

Regarding point 3... so you agree that riding your 636 helped you towards riding your 10, but that same logic doesn't apply to moving up from anything smaller than a 636 to a 636? Ah, right... no contradictions there