Would you recommend a 600cc supersport to a noob?

[ervins]

I will say it...Some people have no business riding a bike. Some people ride like maniacs in the worst places, the streets. I would not recommend a bike to some jackarse kid who says COOL in their sentence more than 3 times...Now for an older rider such as myself, I would recommend a bike...Now if they were over a certain height a 600 if they were vertically challenged a 250 but I mean in the extreme. Sub 5'5". I rode my bikes stock for a bit and yeah it was tough on hills but I never stalled on a hill...That was me though and not everyone can ever be me. I have always said that not everyone should ride...I do not deny that...Now starting your wife on a 650R is smart...Why? Because you know your wife's character...I stated I would start my wife on a 250 because of her character. Now talking with friends, 600 easily...It is hard to recommend a bike on this forum because we do not really know the people asking the question. You can tell sometimes by the way they write or respond, but that is not the whole picture. Just presonally it depends on who is asking and how big they are.

I would recommend are bikes that can allow you to learn and still have room to respect the power underneath and also the power to still give you a thrill, and room for riding a while. Not to say a smaller bike won't but in some instances it may not...Yeah the smaller bike is lighter but not that much but again that is a rider thing.

There are reasons you did not start her on a 250 and that is what you should share...Not the hypotheticals but the real world truths. Some of us did start on 600s, some on 250s, some on 650s etc. You share the reasons why we started on those bikes, what was good and bad. There are NO ABSOLUTES in any of these topics of which bike...Just shared stories to help others in their decision process.

That my people is sound advice (Definition - Opinion (Definition - A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof) about what could or should be done about a situation or problem; counsel) . You give them the info (from real world personal experiences and none of this hearsay BS from some yahoo writing on the web) to make a smart decision. You can not nor should you force someone into a decision based on conjecture (Definition -

1. Inference or judgment based on inconclusive or incomplete evidence; guesswork.)

Originally Posted by bennice

Glad to hear that the disagreement didn't rub you the wrong way. Are you shallow? I dunno about that, but one thing you said sticks out in my mind and makes me laugh. Remember this?





So I think I get your angle a bit better now. You're essentially saying that you recommend a newb that doesn't have the smarts enough to ride a 600 proficiently and safely should grow up and not ride at all until they do...right?

But do you acknowledge that not all sensible people that want to learn how to ride are capable of handling, and may not want to handle a 600cc supersport? Can you agree that none of us NEEDS that kind of power, but we definitely like to have it on tap?

My wife is long legged and strong, and is almost 6 months into learning how to ride on a 650. Had she tried to learn on my 6RR it would have been bad...VERY bad, and it probably would have scared her away from riding. That doesn't make her a squid or suggest lack of smarts on her part. It's just much more power than she needs, much too aggressive riding position, and intimidating to someone completely new to riding.

I still think you should borrow a 250 someday and let her rip thru the twisties a time or two.

[bennice]

Originally Posted by ervins

I would recommend are bikes that can allow you to learn and still have room to respect the power underneath and also the power to still give you a thrill, and room for riding a while. Not to say a smaller bike won't but in some instances it may not...Yeah the smaller bike is lighter but not that much but again that is a rider thing.

There are reasons you did not start her on a 250 and that is what you should share...Not the hypotheticals but the real world truths. Some of us did start on 600s, some on 250s, some on 650s etc. You share the reasons why we started on those bikes, what was good and bad. There are NO ABSOLUTES in any of these topics of which bike...Just shared stories to help others in their decision process.

There were lots of reasons I got the 650R for my wife as opposed to keeping the 250R I already had at the time.

1.) I wanted a bike for her that SHE picked out for herself (within reason). Not the bike she picked out for me, or one that I picked for her.

2.) Since I'd already gained experience with a 250, I knew of its strengths and shortcomings. One thing about the 250 that is not forgiving is the throttle response and power delivery. Mine had a tendency to start of rather harshly in 1st gear, then in 2nd it was rather tame for a second and then take off as the RPM's climbed. Cruising at highway speeds may require a lot of shifting, and I knew this wouldn't be desirable for her. I also knew the suspension on the 650 is far superior to the stock suspension on the 250. Overall, it's just a much more refined bike.

3.) I liked the 650 also, and wanted her to get something new that I would also enjoy.

4.) The blue bike was just too pretty to resist.

Really, that's it in a nutshell. If finances had been an issue I would have just kept the 250 - at least for awhile. But her interest in riding came at the perfect time and hit us at a financial "sweet spot."

She's not in it for the same kind of thrill that others like about riding. It's not at all about riding aggressively or dragging a knee for her...and that stuff comes in a distant 2nd for me. It's all about just getting out there, spending some time together, meeting and hanging out with some new folks with the wind in our face on some slick rides. For her, conquering something new that she'd never done before is also a big boost.

For those who aren't in it for that same thrill you speak of so often, race bikes are probably not for them. That doesn't mean that they have to go the cruiser route either, because maybe that doesn't fit their style (nothing wrong if that IS their style).

The fact that I'm on my 2nd ZX600 (different generations) in a year has nothing to do with my wanting that Duc 848 or ZX10. I've just found that for the type of riding I do I want the powerband that those bikes have to offer. I'm not sick of the I4 600 at all - it just doesn't behave the way I'd like at "street speeds."

The first bike I rode on the street (legally) was an '82 Yamaha Maxim 550, but I'd been riding dirt bikes and ATV's for a long, long time prior to that. Despite the experience with 2-wheeled machines in general, learning to ride on the street took some getting used to, and I had more than my share of close calls. Had the power and technology of today's bikes been accessible to me back then I probably wouldn't be here to talk about it now. I rode a few other bikes in between the Maxim and the present, learned lots, and most of all I SURVIVED.

Fast forward to last year when I got back into riding, the 250 was perfect for that situation, and I was lucky to have discovered its strengths, which are not mentioned enough. I never was able to ride it to its limits, but was tempted by the I4 600's so much that I finally gave in, and here we are today. I made a bad decision getting rid of the 250, and I now regret it. Fortunately, it didn't really hurt me financially since I rode it for almost a year and only lost a couple hundred $$$. Now, I'm in the market for another one, and will probably get that before I go for the 848 or 10R. It just makes more sense.

So there ya go - you asked for real world experience, how's/why's? Now you got 'em.

[ervins]

That is how the responses should be...Every bike has a strength and weakness. My 10R has a major weakness...It is very very very very demanding...It requires you to be in the right gear for turns, it requires that you brake early and not late, it requires you to not fear turning faster than on a 600, it requires control on the throttle, it requires you to do upgrades that should not have to be done but because Kawi was stupid has to be done (master cylinder), it requires you you to use your body more than one would think even under normal riding. It is a fun bike if you do all that...It is easy to ride in the street because of the power it has, it is a pleasure to turn if you do it right, it is a blast to be able to open it up and know you have more power still in that gear, it has surprising great ergos for people my size except when at a stop of course, it has great throttle response IMO, the power is very linear and not surprising...If you want this bike, get as much as you can from the 636...If you do already then this bike will be fun...I will sell you my bike so I can get the 848 if you want? I am not going to go from the 10R to a smaller bike because I regret it...No, I am actually going to get it because I want to say I owned a Ducati...Though I am enamored by the looks of the new gixxer 750 as well.

I explained why I would tell my wife to get a 250...All of which are personal reason, strength, personality, and need. Plus she does not use the highway to go to work...It is a canyon road. So to sum it up, the 250 is good for her because one she is not strong, fit but not buff. As I mentioned she gets skittish easily and that is not good at all (she is one person that a bike is not suitable for - See I am honest), she takes the side roads where posted is max 45mph...She wouldn't mind riding a bike, but as you said, her uses for it are way more different than mine. I am buying a Solstice early next year...That will be her bike. HAHA.

Originally Posted by bennice

There were lots of reasons I got the 650R for my wife as opposed to keeping the 250R I already had at the time.

1.) I wanted a bike for her that SHE picked out for herself (within reason). Not the bike she picked out for me, or one that I picked for her.

2.) Since I'd already gained experience with a 250, I knew of its strengths and shortcomings. One thing about the 250 that is not forgiving is the throttle response and power delivery. Mine had a tendency to start of rather harshly in 1st gear, then in 2nd it was rather tame for a second and then take off as the RPM's climbed. Cruising at highway speeds may require a lot of shifting, and I knew this wouldn't be desirable for her. I also knew the suspension on the 650 is far superior to the stock suspension on the 250. Overall, it's just a much more refined bike.

3.) I liked the 650 also, and wanted her to get something new that I would also enjoy.

4.) The blue bike was just too pretty to resist.

Really, that's it in a nutshell. If finances had been an issue I would have just kept the 250 - at least for awhile. But her interest in riding came at the perfect time and hit us at a financial "sweet spot."

She's not in it for the same kind of thrill that others like about riding. It's not at all about riding aggressively or dragging a knee for her...and that stuff comes in a distant 2nd for me. It's all about just getting out there, spending some time together, meeting and hanging out with some new folks with the wind in our face on some slick rides. For her, conquering something new that she'd never done before is also a big boost.

No one will ever exceed a bikes potential...However, you can get tired of what it has to offer...I replace PCs at home every 2 years, new car every 5 years. I am averaging a new bike every year, etc...Nothing wrong with change...People who don't change...Now that is a problem.

For those who aren't in it for that same thrill you speak of so often, race bikes are probably not for them. That doesn't mean that they have to go the cruiser route either, because maybe that doesn't fit their style (nothing wrong if that IS their style).

The fact that I'm on my 2nd ZX600 (different generations) in a year has nothing to do with my wanting that Duc 848 or ZX10. I've just found that for the type of riding I do I want the powerband that those bikes have to offer. I'm not sick of the I4 600 at all - it just doesn't behave the way I'd like at "street speeds."

The first bike I rode on the street (legally) was an '82 Yamaha Maxim 550, but I'd been riding dirt bikes and ATV's for a long, long time prior to that. Despite the experience with 2-wheeled machines in general, learning to ride on the street took some getting used to, and I had more than my share of close calls. Had the power and technology of today's bikes been accessible to me back then I probably wouldn't be here to talk about it now. I rode a few other bikes in between the Maxim and the present, learned lots, and most of all I SURVIVED.

Fast forward to last year when I got back into riding, the 250 was perfect for that situation, and I was lucky to have discovered its strengths, which are not mentioned enough. I never was able to ride it to its limits, but was tempted by the I4 600's so much that I finally gave in, and here we are today. I made a bad decision getting rid of the 250, and I now regret it. Fortunately, it didn't really hurt me financially since I rode it for almost a year and only lost a couple hundred $$$. Now, I'm in the market for another one, and will probably get that before I go for the 848 or 10R. It just makes more sense.

So there ya go - you asked for real world experience, how's/why's? Now you got 'em.

[daemon]

WOW!!!
now that i have had the chance to catch up on some "LIGHT" reading in this thread.
and i'm sure it is about as far as it is going to go in regards to discussion,i will put in my 50 cent's worth of advice....
1.i have never had a person ask me what i think will be the best bike for them to learn on...it's always the same story.
" that one looks cool,what do you think??"
NAH!!! most likely too much for you.
" i think i can handle it"
can you handle what will happen when you drop it?? can you afford to replace it?.....or are you just trying to impress your friends.

i have been on quite a few shopping sprees with associates that want to look and ogle over what they want....not what they can handle.

would i suggest to them a 250....NO!!!
i tell each person that mentions to me that they are interested in learning to ride that they should take the MSF course. i tell them the advantages of doing so and they listen.
some balk at the price of the class itself,but i remind them that i believe it would be in their best interest.
there are many people who have taken the class and decided that motorcycling is truly mot in their blood.
how many (kids)(adults)(darwin candidates) have you seen go to sell their new machine because they found out just how much beyond them it was to handle??
most have never taken the class.
2. I have never owned a "SS" type bike,but i have ridden quite a few.
the comfort level was not something to my desire.....to each their own i guess.
it does go to say that i have a somewhat powerful bike and that after an 8 year hiatus i should have gone with something a bit smaller in CC's,but i was quite aware of the possibilities of what the machine could do(i read and understood the specifications)and how i could expect it to respond to my type of riding.
3. even when i was a NOOB i had that "you can't touch this" attitude(please,no MC hammer jokes) about what i thought i could do as a rider.
i never too the BRC class.never knew it existed or it didn't exist in my area to my knowledge.
i learned how to ride the street on an old bike that i was not afraid of.
it showed me what fear should be.
i slammed a car at about 35mph. IMO it was both our faults.
that didn't seem to stop me.
i went on to the next bike....a little less power,but not because i felt i needed less power. only that i was somewhat poor after my hernia surgery....
i was glad to be back on a bike after a year away.

i wanted more power....got it in a 750 turbo.
insanely stupid power and i was stil IMO a NOOB.
couple of dumb mistakes later and i was ready(or so i thought) to jump up to a more powerful brand new bike.
GPZ1100. loved that bike.
didn't keep me from crashing it 3 times.
once was my "show off" attitude and one other was being forced into a median by a straight truck that wanted my lane more than i neede it.
both were the cause of (still) inexperience.
now i am on the bike that i love...
power,sex appeal and comfort.
still it has shown me on many occasions that "IT" is the one that is in control.
never have i claimed to be a superb rider,many have given me praises for my ability,but i write it off and don't let it go to my head.

4. this is where the problem lies....
GO TO MY HEAD
"i can handle it"
"i'll take it easy"
"i know my limitations"
"i'm not immature"
"impress myself,not others"

no matter what you think of yourself, you always tend to prove yourself wrong.


anyone confused on where i am coming from???

SO AM I!!!
must be age setting in.

recommending something to someone will never get the response you were hoping for.
trust me on that.

someone ask's you for your opinion on what they should do with their need for something far beyond what you feel they can absorb, tell them....
i doubt it will do any good.



man my fingers are numb now.

[A2rider]

Wow, Mike. I think that has to be your longest post to date!

And do you know why your and Ben's and Ervins fingers are numb? Because all of you are VERY passionate about your bikes, and riding in general. I share the same passion, and if I was 6 inches taller, I could add my 2 cents worth on supersports, because I would be riding one! Thanks for all the good reading guys, this has been one of the best threads I have had the pleasure of reading.

[Ninja_Wendy]

Originally Posted by bennice

3.) I liked the 650 also, and wanted her to get something new that I would also enjoy.

Geez, so selfish.

Originally Posted by bennice

4.) The blue bike was just too pretty to resist.

+1. The blue is soooo pretty. Dave said I can borrow his but if I do, I might not give it back. It would probably be good to try it out before I go buying one though.

[bennice]

Originally Posted by Ninja_Wendy

Geez, so selfish.



+1. The blue is soooo pretty. Dave said I can borrow his but if I do, I might not give it back. It would probably be good to try it out before I go buying one though.

HAHA! Hey, I had to get something that I wouldn't mind riding in case she didn't take to the sport I'm grateful that she let me ride it throughout the break-in period...I had lots of fun with it. She's just nice that way.

Actually the 650R was one of the first bikes I considered when I started looking at 600cc machines. Had the funds been available to me before I found the first ZX6R, I probably would have bought it (totally on impulse). If ever I get enough cash to throw around, and after a few more high-priority things are acquired I would totally consider buying another 650R for me - probably a project bike with salvage title or something. It really is a great ride and has lots of interesting mods available (see JTPaintball's bike).

[Quicklimegirl]

Originally Posted by JimmyD

I also don't know why people "get tired" of a 250/500. You're not riding it right if that's the case. Flogging them to their limit is half the fun. Those things are nimble corner cutters with a set of good tires and some stronger springs and I'm constantly amazing my friends with what "just a 500" can do to keep up with their CBRs. Maybe they live in the prairie side of the country..

The emphasized part in the above quote really says it all. I've ridden on the street since the early 70s, and while I'm a lot more mellow than, say, age 19...I still like to have fun. Despite my years of experience (of maybe because of it) I cannot ride my Z1000 to it's limits..and don't even want to try. Even with all the choices I have in my garage of light, agile, 2 stroke Cafe bikes and the Z, the mint '95 Ninja 250 I bought my Nephew to learn on was one of my favorite rides while I was storing it for him. What a blast to flick around the local twisties it was!! I'll probably buy another in a few years if I decide to cut back on my vintage bike addiction.

As to the SS bike for a newb: Not no but HELL no. I cannot understand anyone truly defending the idea of recommending a racebike with lights for a newbie. Near criminal irresponsibility!

[likearock4x4]

This has been a very entertaining thread!!! Congrats to you guys for keeping it civil!!!

One comment, go ask any MSF instructor what his/her opinion of a noob on a SS is? Take a guess what the response will be.

[stefano]

Did I make your "ignore" list Ervins or are you simply choosing not to answer me? I have no interest in continuing this argument anyway (you've officially gained the top spot on my "most stubborn" list ), but I was just curious...

Someone please quote me in case I've made Ervins' ignore list

[daemon]

i doubt that erv has put you on an ignore list.
he's too cool to do that.
as tina said....this has been kept civil and i have not seen anything that would break someone's temper.
we are all just passionate about what we love.

i quoted you just in case

Originally Posted by stefano

Did I make your "ignore" list Ervins or are you simply choosing not to answer me? I have no interest in continuing this argument anyway (you've officially gained the top spot on my "most stubborn" list ), but I was just curious...

Someone please quote me in case I've made Ervins' ignore list

[stefano]

Originally Posted by daemon

i quoted you just in case

I agree with you though - that's what I love about this forum. 99% of the people here are mature enough to have even animated debates without stepping over the line.

Unfortunately there will always be the jacka.ss who turns it into a flaming contest, but jacka.sses are like cockroaches - they'll never die out! Darwin was WRONG!!!

[daemon]

on that i will agree.
seems there are far too many people who shouldn't be allowed to breathe...let alone wander around doing whatever the voices in their head tell them to do.

I SAY GIVE EACH ONE OF THEM A "SS" POWERED BIKE AND TELL THEM THE COPS ARE ON THEIR TAIL.

[likearock4x4]

Originally Posted by stefano

I agree with you though - that's what I love about this forum. 99% of the people here are mature enough to have even animated debates without stepping over the line.

Unfortunately there will always be the jacka.ss who turns it into a flaming contest, but jacka.sses are like cockroaches - they'll never die out! Darwin was WRONG!!!

Ahhhhh, but the beauty is, when one of them there "cockroaches" shows up, a simple post on the shield (to complain about it) and it has been squashed.

There's never a need to "put up with" that kind of behavior. It's not needed here.

[A2rider]

Originally Posted by likearock4x4

Ahhhhh, but the beauty is, when one of them there "cockroaches" shows up, a simple post on the shield (to complain about it) and it has been squashed.

There's never a need to "put up with" that kind of behavior. It's not needed here.

Spoken like a newly minted moderator

[Tweek]

Damn - I switch off the ADD for a day so I can get some work done, come back here and you guys are still at it. And I'm the one with the ADD. Riiiiiiight. Or maybe its the OCD - it's hard to tell the difference sometimes.

Funny thing for me is that the rest of the family wants to start riding two. The little girls have a pocket bike on the way. We'll start out playing in the parking lot while they learn how to keep things under control and I see if they can actually follow directions. If it works out this spring I'll let them go out for the Texas MiniGP and some of the other racing events we have available.
My wife on the other hand is a different storey. she wants to ride on the track. She isn't too interested in riding on the street. I'm actually really happy about that. I find street riding a million times more dangerous that street riding and a billion times more boring. I get next to nothing out of it anymore. I hate other drivers and I'd like to shoot people who talk on their cellphones while driving. no - seriously - right in the face. preferably low caliber so it won't be fatal, just deforming and painful.

anyway - My wife will probably start on a 250. Not because it's oh so much safer than the other choices available. Simply because out of the box it will fit her stubbly little legs better without having to make a bunch of suspension adjustments. We'll look at the Ninja 650 and SV 650 too, but I think they are going to be too tall again. And no - the whole one leg thing is BS. I've not dropped a bike because I can flat foot a giraffe so I can keep control of my bike and muscle it around where I want it. You can't do that on one leg.

The big thing to me is gear. So many people wanting their first bike **** and moan about buying gear and wearing gear. I've spent more than I care to remember on gear. To me that is more important than the choice of bike. Get a Ninja 5000 if you insist, but at least put a Fing helmet on your dumb@ss skull. Maybe throw on a jacket and gloves too. Boots and pants are also pretty nice. See too many squids flying by on their GIXER 750 (very popular choice around here) with nothing on but a t-shirt and sunglasses. Maybe they have pants on - I'm not looking.

Anyway - this board is still populated by a school bus of kids high on too much sugar.

I'm going to try and get some real work done.

Oh - and the only way to break in a new engine is to take it to the track and do a bunch of hot laps at full throttle (after a proper warm up of course). That whole keep it under 4K RPM is soooooo much bs.

my work is done here.

[likearock4x4]

Originally Posted by A2rider

Spoken like a newly minted moderator

Well, stricly speaking, I've been capable of those tasks for some time, but now I have the authority that goes with it now.

And I'm green with envy.

[stefano]

Originally Posted by daemon

on that i will agree.
seems there are far too many people who shouldn't be allowed to breathe...let alone wander around doing whatever the voices in their head tell them to do.

I SAY GIVE EACH ONE OF THEM A "SS" POWERED BIKE AND TELL THEM THE COPS ARE ON THEIR TAIL.

Bwaaaaaahahaha... maybe Ervin's logic of getting any john, d.ick or harry straight onto a 600 isn't that wrong after all

[A2rider]

If test rides were available, it would make the decision so much easier.

[likearock4x4]

Originally Posted by likearock4x4

Ahhhhh, but the beauty is, when one of them there "cockroaches" shows up, a simple post on the shield (to complain about it) and it has been squashed.

There's never a need to "put up with" that kind of behavior. It's not needed here.

Please forgive me for being stupid this morning, I'm pretty out of it. It occurred to me on the way home in my sleepy stupor that my point may have not been made very well and might have not gotten across.

What I was trying to do was to inform (or reinforce, depending on if you remembered this or not) the members here that the green shield icon on the left under your post count, and next to the online status indicator can be used to report abusive, inapropriate, or spam posts. Some people here may not know that.

I'm sorry if it came accross the wrong way, after all, I'm no better than any of the other members here. I just get to play more.