Would you recommend a 600cc supersport to a noob?

[ervins]

That was actually a good post bro...In essence people will get what they want, take courses, let people know the goods and the bads, and the last part is what matters...It is all you and that is day to day as we know...One day you are the Sh*T next thing you are an irresponsible noobophyte.

Originally Posted by daemon

WOW!!!
now that i have had the chance to catch up on some "LIGHT" reading in this thread.
and i'm sure it is about as far as it is going to go in regards to discussion,i will put in my 50 cent's worth of advice....
1.i have never had a person ask me what i think will be the best bike for them to learn on...it's always the same story.
" that one looks cool,what do you think??"
NAH!!! most likely too much for you.
" i think i can handle it"
can you handle what will happen when you drop it?? can you afford to replace it?.....or are you just trying to impress your friends.

i have been on quite a few shopping sprees with associates that want to look and ogle over what they want....not what they can handle.

would i suggest to them a 250....NO!!!
i tell each person that mentions to me that they are interested in learning to ride that they should take the MSF course. i tell them the advantages of doing so and they listen.
some balk at the price of the class itself,but i remind them that i believe it would be in their best interest.
there are many people who have taken the class and decided that motorcycling is truly mot in their blood.
how many (kids)(adults)(darwin candidates) have you seen go to sell their new machine because they found out just how much beyond them it was to handle??
most have never taken the class.
2. I have never owned a "SS" type bike,but i have ridden quite a few.
the comfort level was not something to my desire.....to each their own i guess.
it does go to say that i have a somewhat powerful bike and that after an 8 year hiatus i should have gone with something a bit smaller in CC's,but i was quite aware of the possibilities of what the machine could do(i read and understood the specifications)and how i could expect it to respond to my type of riding.
3. even when i was a NOOB i had that "you can't touch this" attitude(please,no MC hammer jokes) about what i thought i could do as a rider.
i never too the BRC class.never knew it existed or it didn't exist in my area to my knowledge.
i learned how to ride the street on an old bike that i was not afraid of.
it showed me what fear should be.
i slammed a car at about 35mph. IMO it was both our faults.
that didn't seem to stop me.
i went on to the next bike....a little less power,but not because i felt i needed less power. only that i was somewhat poor after my hernia surgery....
i was glad to be back on a bike after a year away.

i wanted more power....got it in a 750 turbo.
insanely stupid power and i was stil IMO a NOOB.
couple of dumb mistakes later and i was ready(or so i thought) to jump up to a more powerful brand new bike.
GPZ1100. loved that bike.
didn't keep me from crashing it 3 times.
once was my "show off" attitude and one other was being forced into a median by a straight truck that wanted my lane more than i neede it.
both were the cause of (still) inexperience.
now i am on the bike that i love...
power,sex appeal and comfort.
still it has shown me on many occasions that "IT" is the one that is in control.
never have i claimed to be a superb rider,many have given me praises for my ability,but i write it off and don't let it go to my head.

4. this is where the problem lies....
GO TO MY HEAD
"i can handle it"
"i'll take it easy"
"i know my limitations"
"i'm not immature"
"impress myself,not others"

no matter what you think of yourself, you always tend to prove yourself wrong.


anyone confused on where i am coming from???

SO AM I!!!
must be age setting in.

recommending something to someone will never get the response you were hoping for.
trust me on that.

someone ask's you for your opinion on what they should do with their need for something far beyond what you feel they can absorb, tell them....
i doubt it will do any good.



man my fingers are numb now.

[ervins]

Originally Posted by A2rider

Wow, Mike. I think that has to be your longest post to date!

And do you know why your and Ben's and Ervins fingers are numb? Because all of you are VERY passionate about your bikes, and riding in general. I share the same passion, and if I was 6 inches taller, I could add my 2 cents worth on supersports, because I would be riding one! Thanks for all the good reading guys, this has been one of the best threads I have had the pleasure of reading.

Honestly it is a good thread...I am honestly not hating on anyone...Anyone think I am hating, I will tell you this...I do my hating on the Honda forums LOL!!!!

[ervins]

Originally Posted by stefano

Did I make your "ignore" list Ervins or are you simply choosing not to answer me? I have no interest in continuing this argument anyway (you've officially gained the top spot on my "most stubborn" list ), but I was just curious...

Someone please quote me in case I've made Ervins' ignore list

Why do you guys think I am hating? Have I ever hated on anyone? I hate Hondas but Cmon....You guys ride Kawis ok Seadoo is ok on his Honda I type all day for proposals, quotes, training material for new reps, etc. My day is spent typing and being on the phone...No I do not block anyone and yes I am stubborn...However, I will always hear both sides...That is how you learn to question yourself and beliefs which in the end only makes a person smarter. Damn guinnee whop
No hate here people...Just want to make sure that people understand the definitions of advice and opinions. Tell me your stories so I and others can learn not one sided arguments. I have stated numerous times that my 636 was tough to learn on but it helped me.

[ervins]

Originally Posted by daemon

i doubt that erv has put you on an ignore list.
he's too cool to do that.
as tina said....this has been kept civil and i have not seen anything that would break someone's temper.
we are all just passionate about what we love.

i quoted you just in case

See Daemon knows...Not a hater here. Just want to make sure everyone shares there reasons for yes and no...Not just one sided arguments. I have agreed that not everyone should ride, I have agreed that in some instances a 250 is good, I have also said that a 600 is dangerous, and now I have to respond to accusations of ignoring...Not my style as I said. If anything I will confront you but this is all good. Only time I go off the loop is in traffic, when a customer becomes a hand holding gimp, and when new reps ask for stuff that I have given out numerous times. Also when I do not have rice to eat LOL!!!!

[ervins]

You hit it on the nail...No one mentioned gear...Gear helps as well to promote confidence and actually IMO helping make learning to ride easier. I am a gear Nutzi and one thing I recommend is getting gear before you shoot the load on a bike...Gear is golden.

Originally Posted by Tweek

Damn - I switch off the ADD for a day so I can get some work done, come back here and you guys are still at it. And I'm the one with the ADD. Riiiiiiight. Or maybe its the OCD - it's hard to tell the difference sometimes.

Funny thing for me is that the rest of the family wants to start riding two. The little girls have a pocket bike on the way. We'll start out playing in the parking lot while they learn how to keep things under control and I see if they can actually follow directions. If it works out this spring I'll let them go out for the Texas MiniGP and some of the other racing events we have available.
My wife on the other hand is a different storey. she wants to ride on the track. She isn't too interested in riding on the street. I'm actually really happy about that. I find street riding a million times more dangerous that street riding and a billion times more boring. I get next to nothing out of it anymore. I hate other drivers and I'd like to shoot people who talk on their cellphones while driving. no - seriously - right in the face. preferably low caliber so it won't be fatal, just deforming and painful.

anyway - My wife will probably start on a 250. Not because it's oh so much safer than the other choices available. Simply because out of the box it will fit her stubbly little legs better without having to make a bunch of suspension adjustments. We'll look at the Ninja 650 and SV 650 too, but I think they are going to be too tall again. And no - the whole one leg thing is BS. I've not dropped a bike because I can flat foot a giraffe so I can keep control of my bike and muscle it around where I want it. You can't do that on one leg.

The big thing to me is gear. So many people wanting their first bike **** and moan about buying gear and wearing gear. I've spent more than I care to remember on gear. To me that is more important than the choice of bike. Get a Ninja 5000 if you insist, but at least put a Fing helmet on your dumb@ss skull. Maybe throw on a jacket and gloves too. Boots and pants are also pretty nice. See too many squids flying by on their GIXER 750 (very popular choice around here) with nothing on but a t-shirt and sunglasses. Maybe they have pants on - I'm not looking.

Anyway - this board is still populated by a school bus of kids high on too much sugar.

I'm going to try and get some real work done.

Oh - and the only way to break in a new engine is to take it to the track and do a bunch of hot laps at full throttle (after a proper warm up of course). That whole keep it under 4K RPM is soooooo much bs.

my work is done here.

[ervins]

Originally Posted by A2rider

If test rides were available, it would make the decision so much easier.

Amen...Only times you can do that is friends or cycle show.

[stefano]

Originally Posted by ervins

Not a hater here.... and now I have to respond to accusations of ignoring...Not my style as I said. If anything I will confront you but this is all good.

Hey bro, I never said anything about you being a hater.

Simply I couldn't ignore the fact that I posted 3 or 4 posts aimed directly at you and I wasn't getting any replies. I was just checking.

Peace.

[Tweek]

On test rides - Just found out that AMS is supposed to get a demo 848! The open house is on the 14th and 15th. Maybe I'll get the chance to squid out and test ride a few Ducs in a few weeks.

[fireplug]

Trick question....it depends on the person no so much the bike. I started out on a GSX-R 600 with no problems. It is not that I was some great rider or anything but I simply had respect for the bike and what it can do. I have still yet to buy a bike over a 600 for the same reason...respect. There are many "seasoned" riders out there on their liter bikes that I would tell them not to buy anything over a 500 if I could beacuse of the way they ride.

You have to simply be honest with yourself and know if you do or do not have the control to be on a bigger sportbike.

[JimmyD]

Originally Posted by ervins

Your reasoning on the last part is majorly flawed. We are not talking about helmets Next try. Stay to the topic...Makes for a good conversation. We can talk about helmets in another thread. I promise. I am all about helmets. The other question is not loaded because one has better brakes than the other bike, but the rider grabbed to much of it...The other guy was in the wrong gear...As you can see, rider error...two more tries.

My point was, your logic is, a 600 SS and a 250 will both go down in the twisties if the rider makes them.

So, therefore, your logic says, buy the 600 SS, as if a rider is going to crash, tehy're going to crash, and a 250 isn't worth "settling" for since it's just as likely to crash.

So I'm using the same logic as you. Two people, one wearing a helmet and one not, die in an accident.

So, why bother wearing a helmet, if wearing one will not protect you from death? With your logic, it doesn't make sense to.

Well, in the real world, helmets reduce your risk of dying. And in the same way, a 250 gives the same kind of "safety net", except in this situation a 250's safety net isn't protection from head injuries, it's protection from an inexperienced rider gunning the throttle in a panic and ending up in the back of a Suburban.

That was why I thought your logic was flawed in that situation.

[ervins]

Originally Posted by fireplug

Trick question....it depends on the person no so much the bike. I started out on a GSX-R 600 with no problems. It is not that I was some great rider or anything but I simply had respect for the bike and what it can do. I have still yet to buy a bike over a 600 for the same reason...respect. There are many "seasoned" riders out there on their liter bikes that I would tell them not to buy anything over a 500 if I could beacuse of the way they ride.

You have to simply be honest with yourself and know if you do or do not have the control to be on a bigger sportbike.

That is exactly right.

[ervins]

Originally Posted by JimmyD

My point was, your logic is, a 600 SS and a 250 will both go down in the twisties if the rider makes them.

So, therefore, your logic says, buy the 600 SS, as if a rider is going to crash, tehy're going to crash, and a 250 isn't worth "settling" for since it's just as likely to crash.

So I'm using the same logic as you. Two people, one wearing a helmet and one not, die in an accident.

So, why bother wearing a helmet, if wearing one will not protect you from death? With your logic, it doesn't make sense to.

Well, in the real world, helmets reduce your risk of dying. And in the same way, a 250 gives the same kind of "safety net", except in this situation a 250's safety net isn't protection from head injuries, it's protection from an inexperienced rider gunning the throttle in a panic and ending up in the back of a Suburban.

That was why I thought your logic was flawed in that situation.

The thing is that we are talking about the bike. Gear is another story and the horror of how one dies in a crash is another story as well. Full gear and I walked away from a 100mph crash and worked the following day.

a 250 and a 600 can go over 100mph easily...If both crashed at that speed, what happens to engine size? Forget crashing now, which would stop quicker? (Various ways to do it and effective ways are rider controlled.) Ok lets talk comfort...I can not do the upright well...Should I get the 250? Or the guy who wants the better gas mileage? Should he get a 600? It can go back and forth forever...I will tell them hey, I loved my 600...Once I got rid of the stock exhaust, the gas went to crappola...Now 250 riders claim 60mpg...Now if that is your impetus to get a 250, then knock yourself out...No way any 600 can compete with that. Two up and you are a heavy guy? No small bike is going to do that in a highway in the Bay Area...A 600 though if you are stupid can really rain on your parade...So can a 250. The situation will be dictated by the rider...Get a stupid 250 guy and a stupid 600 guy and they are just situations waiting to happen. Heck even I get silly on my bike...It is so easy to twist it and it is going 100mph...Snap it and you can get your arms jerked straight and even off if you are not ready. Perils in every ride...I want a dirtbike. I want a small one because darnit they are too tall.

[RichLockyer]

Originally Posted by ervins

I want a dirtbike. I want a small one because darnit they are too tall.

Unfortunately, any dirtbike that won't leave you wanting for more is going to be based on the same frame size... 120cc pingers, 250 and 450 thumpers are all right about the same seat height unless you back out of the competition-style bikes... and anything less than a competition style bike won't cut it for you either in power or suspension.

Get yourself a good 250 or 450 thumper like the Yamaha YZ/WR, Honda CRF/CRFX, or similar, shave the seat foam down, and lower the suspension (same rules as for street bikes... lower the rear suspension and raise the fork tubes in the clamps the same amount).
You can easily get a couple of inches without hurting suspension travel or ground clearance.

The Yamaha TTR250 is a fun toy, but you won't be happy with it after the first ride.

[RichLockyer]

Originally Posted by JimmyD

So, why bother wearing a helmet, if wearing one will not protect you from death?

I don't wear one by choice... California says I have to.

[ervins]

Originally Posted by RichLockyer

Unfortunately, any dirtbike that won't leave you wanting for more is going to be based on the same frame size... 120cc pingers, 250 and 450 thumpers are all right about the same seat height unless you back out of the competition-style bikes... and anything less than a competition style bike won't cut it for you either in power or suspension.

Get yourself a good 250 or 450 thumper like the Yamaha YZ/WR, Honda CRF/CRFX, or similar, shave the seat foam down, and lower the suspension (same rules as for street bikes... lower the rear suspension and raise the fork tubes in the clamps the same amount).
You can easily get a couple of inches without hurting suspension travel or ground clearance.

The Yamaha TTR250 is a fun toy, but you won't be happy with it after the first ride.

I got to ride my buddies Yamaha 50 and it was fun...Small (relly small) but fun. Yeah the seat heights just kill me...I am thinking of a 125 or something...However, I can see a bigger bike for down the road...This summer would be cool since their is a place to ride for $30 all day near me. Yeah, if I get one, there goes all the tweeking again...HAHA.

[bennice]

Originally Posted by fireplug

Trick question....it depends on the person no so much the bike. I started out on a GSX-R 600 with no problems. It is not that I was some great rider or anything but I simply had respect for the bike and what it can do. I have still yet to buy a bike over a 600 for the same reason...respect. There are many "seasoned" riders out there on their liter bikes that I would tell them not to buy anything over a 500 if I could beacuse of the way they ride.

You have to simply be honest with yourself and know if you do or do not have the control to be on a bigger sportbike.

Yes, and these are the dissenting votes. And it's been said repeatedly that while this may be fine for some people, you have something that the typical newb w/o any riding experience has - RESPECT and CONTEXT. For the person who doesn't know how little you need to twist the throttle to do 100+ MPH, it's not advisable to put them on a machine like a supersport - nor any other bike that could land them in danger that easily. The difference between folks like you and Ervins and the newbs that we're discussing is that you knew going into things what could potentially happen if you twisted the throttle mid-turn, and you had at least some idea about what your first machine was capable of.

Personally, I don't see why anyone who loves to ride as much as I do wouldn't want a 250 or 500 around just to kick around on. I mean, sure it's not sexy like our 600's or liter bikes, and it's anywhere near as fast, but it's not supposed to be. And it DOES get fantastic MPG no matter how wide your arse is. They're so cheap to own there's almost no good reason not to keep one around if you can afford a few extra bucks.

[ervins]

See right there is the a real topic...If I could have 2 additional sportbikes I would get: The new Ducati 848 and a Gixxer 750. Why? One is a Ducati...Nothing like a Japanese bike...And one is timeless...The Gixxer 750...A bike with liter power but 600 nimbleness...Kick around bike? Then I would get an FZR 600 or a Honda F2...

Originally Posted by bennice

Yes, and these are the dissenting votes. And it's been said repeatedly that while this may be fine for some people, you have something that the typical newb w/o any riding experience has - RESPECT and CONTEXT. For the person who doesn't know how little you need to twist the throttle to do 100+ MPH, it's not advisable to put them on a machine like a supersport - nor any other bike that could land them in danger that easily. The difference between folks like you and Ervins and the newbs that we're discussing is that you knew going into things what could potentially happen if you twisted the throttle mid-turn, and you had at least some idea about what your first machine was capable of.

Personally, I don't see why anyone who loves to ride as much as I do wouldn't want a 250 or 500 around just to kick around on. I mean, sure it's not sexy like our 600's or liter bikes, and it's anywhere near as fast, but it's not supposed to be. And it DOES get fantastic MPG no matter how wide your arse is. They're so cheap to own there's almost no good reason not to keep one around if you can afford a few extra bucks.

[RichLockyer]

Originally Posted by ervins

I got to ride my buddies Yamaha 50 and it was fun...Small (relly small) but fun. Yeah the seat heights just kill me...I am thinking of a 125 or something...However, I can see a bigger bike for down the road...This summer would be cool since their is a place to ride for $30 all day near me. Yeah, if I get one, there goes all the tweeking again...HAHA.

Oh ya, pitbikes are a blast to play around with, but for serious offroad use, you need the competition-level frame and suspension, which is where you're basically stuck... the things have close to 12" of ground clearance and nearly that much suspension travel. There is very little difference in physical size between a YZ125, YZ250, YZ/WR250F and YZ/WR450F. Main difference is weight.

There have long been rumors about a slightly scaled down "YZ150F" but I have not seen one other than drawings and speculation.

[ervins]

I just want one with 30inch seat height and we are golden...I have dirt trails in my development which would be cool to go on as well. Yeah that little pit bike was silly fun.

[bennice]

Originally Posted by ervins

See right there is the a real topic...If I could have 2 additional sportbikes I would get: The new Ducati 848 and a Gixxer 750. Why? One is a Ducati...Nothing like a Japanese bike...And one is timeless...The Gixxer 750...A bike with liter power but 600 nimbleness...Kick around bike? Then I would get an FZR 600 or a Honda F2...

Well, there's more to it than just that. For a newb rider a 250/500 (or other non-SS bike) could serve multiple purposes. It would provide some road experience while making it harder to get in certain bad situations, and also serve as a kick around, fun tool on the cheap. For me, when I had both the 250 and the 600 I found myself riding the 250 to work more often the the 6R. The ergos were better for riding around in traffic, and the gas mileage was unbeatable. The only place it lacked was acceleration, but that's not a significant issue during rush hour unless someone wanted their face imprint on the SUV ahead of them. And I could still easily out-accelerate and brake faster than anything else on the road.