Would you recommend a 600cc supersport to a noob?

[RichLockyer]

Originally Posted by ervins

I just want one with 30inch seat height and we are golden...I have dirt trails in my development which would be cool to go on as well. Yeah that little pit bike was silly fun.

30"? Wow...
Well... my former boss's son was very happy with his TTR125 L/E

[bennice]

Originally Posted by RichLockyer

The Yamaha TTR250 is a fun toy, but you won't be happy with it after the first ride.

That's good to know. I looked at one a used one of these the other day for my boys. It's a bit on the tall side for my 12 (soon to be 13) year old, but would probably work for my 14 (soon to be 15) year old. What are some of the weaknesses of that bike? I'm having a tough time deciding what will be the right dirtbike for them.

[RichLockyer]

Originally Posted by bennice

That's good to know. I looked at one a used one of these the other day for my boys. It's a bit on the tall side for my 12 (soon to be 13) year old, but would probably work for my 14 (soon to be 15) year old. What are some of the weaknesses of that bike? I'm having a tough time deciding what will be the right dirtbike for them.

The TTR series is a "trail bike" and doesn't have the power or the suspension "oomph" for use on the track.

They are fine for dirt roads and maybe even light sand, but they aren't going to be able to hold up to the abuse of jumps, or have the power for serious sand dunes or hill climbing.

For a smaller rider, I would look at the 125 (there are two, you want the one with the larger rear tire)... the problem with the 250 (and the old 230), like the Honda CRF230, is that they are overweight for the limited power, IE: Pigs.

The advantage of the TTR series over the YZ/WR is that the engines are air cooled, so you don't need to worry about sticks and rocks damaging your radiators (mine are fine, but I put guards on them).

I believe top speed for the TTR series ends up around 45-50, though the 250 might do better.
Even the YZ250F tops out at around 65 or 70, but that's because of the low gearing for the track. The same engine in the WR250F tops at around 85 (been there).

[daemon]

as a riding cohort say's to me all the time.
she will point to her head and say "it's between here"(points to her head) "and here"(points to her wrist)
RESPONSIBILITY

Originally Posted by ervins

That was actually a good post bro...In essence people will get what they want, take courses, let people know the goods and the bads, and the last part is what matters...It is all you and that is day to day as we know...One day you are the Sh*T next thing you are an irresponsible noobophyte.

[hordak]

Originally Posted by JimmyD

It's also why tiered licensing works. Doubt you'll see that this side of the pond though.

What are you talking about?
Statistically speaking 251-500 cc bikes get into over twice as many accidents the 750 cc and up group even tough there are only 3% more of 251-500 cc bikes on the road.
The highest rider risk occurs between 2 and 3 years of road experience.
And only 15% of accidents serious enough to be reported are caused by rider error.
So for every 15 squids going to fast around that hair pin curve on their super sport there is 85 "safe" riders on their 250's ,500,,etc getting creamed by the left turning soccer mom on the cell phone. Having a tire blowout , hitting that loose gravel or deer.
A Graduated licence will do nothing to stop the vast majority of accidents and would only force those who would drive recklessly on a 600 cc super sport to drive recklessly on a 250 or 500 cc instead.

[daemon]

notable point!!!
as said before it is between the head and the hand.
a person who is reckless,careless,above the law and whatever else makes up the gene pool of riders will be their downfall.
i learned alot about my ability and inability in my first few years as a rider.

i have learned ALOT more from my co-riders since i moved to colorado.
they take the time to express how they feel my riding could improve.
i don't always listen to their advice.
WHY???? i'm not aiming to be a racer,just wanting to get from point "A" to point "B" with a smile on my face and the love of the sport.

isn't that all it is about anyway.

i could give a fark less about impressing someone with my "skills" as a rider.
i have seen many fall to my backside trying to chase me or not being in total control of their surroundings or circumstances.

since i have moved here i have been witness to 5 accidents of this kind from fellow riders.....and many more that i have come across to check on the rider or their condition.

were they misbehaving???
most likely.
were they beyond their abilty????
it's possible.
do i cut them out of future endeavors with my group???
no,but i do warn them of what has transpired in the past and that they should learn from it....

do they ever listen????

sometimes

Originally Posted by hordak

What are you talking about?
Statistically speaking 251-500 cc bikes get into over twice as many accidents the 750 cc and up group even tough there are only 3% more of 251-500 cc bikes on the road.
The highest rider risk occurs between 2 and 3 years of road experience.
And only 15% of accidents serious enough to be reported are caused by rider error.
So for every 15 squids going to fast around that hair pin curve on their super sport there is 85 "safe" riders on their 250's ,500,,etc getting creamed by the left turning soccer mom on the cell phone. Having a tire blowout , hitting that loose gravel or deer.
A Graduated licence will do nothing to stop the vast majority of accidents and would only force those who would drive recklessly on a 600 cc super sport to drive recklessly on a 250 or 500 cc instead.

[JimmyD]

Originally Posted by hordak

What are you talking about?
Statistically speaking 251-500 cc bikes get into over twice as many accidents the 750 cc and up group even tough there are only 3% more of 251-500 cc bikes on the road.
The highest rider risk occurs between 2 and 3 years of road experience.
And only 15% of accidents serious enough to be reported are caused by rider error.
So for every 15 squids going to fast around that hair pin curve on their super sport there is 85 "safe" riders on their 250's ,500,,etc getting creamed by the left turning soccer mom on the cell phone. Having a tire blowout , hitting that loose gravel or deer.
A Graduated licence will do nothing to stop the vast majority of accidents and would only force those who would drive recklessly on a 600 cc super sport to drive recklessly on a 250 or 500 cc instead.

That's all fine and dandy but that's 251cc-500cc.


IIRC the cut-off in Tiered countries is 33hp and 125/250 is the prefered bike for this horsepower rating. A Kawasaki 250 is actually 248cc (I think) and your statistic bracket doesn't mean anything. If it's even true, for that matter.

Remember, 78% of statistics on the internet are made up

[bennice]

Originally Posted by daemon

i'm not aiming to be a racer,just wanting to get from point "A" to point "B" with a smile on my face and the love of the sport.

isn't that all it is about anyway.

That's what I'm talkin' bout. Even if I do some track days, now that I know how cheap it is - it's not to race, but to help me become a better rider in a more controlled setting. No cages or bicyclists to watch for, and I dont have to worry about police either.

[Kevorkian]

Originally Posted by bennice

The difference between folks like you and Ervins and the newbs that we're discussing is that you knew going into things what could potentially happen if you twisted the throttle mid-turn, and you had at least some idea about what your first machine was capable of.

What newbs are we discussing? Fireplug and Erv were newbs once too, and I as well, and I still am. Tho I am on a ZZR, I would like to think of that as an SS, pretty close lol.

Just need to feel out the person, find out who they are and let them choose. Give them the pros and cons. I realize this has already been stated, but I will bet $$ that this will flame up again.

I personally don't like hearing people coming on saying that starting on a 600cc or a SS is irresponsible and other things, you need to start on a 250. And anyone telling you that is crazy, or what have you.

Each rider chooses the bike, for the most part. Let's try to guide them based on their ability to take it safe. If we don't know it, let's ask, or get a feel for that peson before jumping to what is the best bike for that person.

[hordak]

Originally Posted by JimmyD

That's all fine and dandy but that's 251cc-500cc.


IIRC the cut-off in Tiered countries is 33hp and 125/250 is the prefered bike for this horsepower rating. A Kawasaki 250 is actually 248cc (I think) and your statistic bracket doesn't mean anything. If it's even true, for that matter.

Remember, 78% of statistics on the internet are made up

The ninja 250 (yes it is 248 cc) has 36 hp(or up to 40 depending on where you get your info) and would be too much bike for a beginner if we followed that system. I can only think of 2 bikes that would be weak enough for that requierment.The Honda Rebel 250 and the Kawasaki eliminator 125.
101-250 cc bikes account for 9% of bikes on the road yet are involved in 13% of accidents
751 and up account for 23 % of the bikes on the road and only account for 16% of accidents. So based on the number of bikes statistically speaking the 751 cc and up bikes are safer then 101-250 cc group.

These stats are taken from the Hurt report via Proficient Motorcycling by David L Hough.

[likearock4x4]

Originally Posted by hordak

The ninja 250 (yes it is 248 cc) has 36 hp(or up to 40 depending on where you get your info) and would be too much bike for a beginner if we followed that system. I can only think of 2 bikes that would be weak enough for that requierment.The Honda Rebel 250 and the Kawasaki eliminator 125.
101-250 cc bikes account for 9% of bikes on the road yet are involved in 13% of accidents
751 and up account for 23 % of the bikes on the road and only account for 16% of accidents. So based on the number of bikes statistically speaking the 751 cc and up bikes are safer then 101-250 cc group.

These stats are taken from the Hurt report via Proficient Motorcycling by David L Hough.

You can make stats say anything you want them to say if you twist them a little.

These stats don't have anything to do with experience level do they???

[JimmyD]

Originally Posted by hordak

The ninja 250 (yes it is 248 cc) has 36 hp(or up to 40 depending on where you get your info) and would be too much bike for a beginner if we followed that system. I can only think of 2 bikes that would be weak enough for that requierment.
The Honda Rebel 250 and the Kawasaki eliminator 125.

Again, that's fine and dandy, but tiered countries have horsepower restrictors for every major bike model. If the 250 is making 36 hp, 40 hp, whatever, the bike has to be restricted to 33hp, and IS by manufacturers. For that matter, if certain bikes are popular, there are kits made to restrict them to 33hp. I'm no expert at all, but ask anyone from england, and they'll tell you it's nothing to get a GSX-R 750 restricted from 125hp to 33 hp, if you want it bad enough and are willing to pay for the kit.

101-250 cc bikes account for 9% of bikes on the road yet are involved in 13% of accidents
751 and up account for 23 % of the bikes on the road and only account for 16% of accidents. So based on the number of bikes statistically speaking the 751 cc and up bikes are safer then 101-250 cc group.

Yes and no. It depends on the type of bike. You might not know it but a Honda ACE 750 is putting out about 45HP at the crank. My EX eats them for breakfast. A Vulcan 900 puts out about 60HP. Again, my EX will eat them for lunch. What's your point? A ZX7 (749cc) puts out about 120 HP and eats my EX in its sleep.

What's my point? CC's mean nothing. Horsepower is the only RELATIVE measurement, because a ZX-6 puts out MORE horsepower than the Vulcan 2000 does, a bike with over 3 times the displacement.

What does this prove? Statistics are fine and dandy and can really help you prove a point if you throw a bunch of numbers at someone who doesn't know what he's talking about.

But I'm not an idiot and I realize that you didn't even reply to my first rebuttal. I can google too, you know.

You made a point. 251-500cc are yadda yadda yadda. What is your point again? Why are you even against tiered licensing? Are you one of those "blah blah blah my freedom to drive an overpowered sportbike, my freedom to kill myself as I see fit is being endangered" right wingers?

These stats are taken from the Hurt report via Proficient Motorcycling by David L Hough.

I might remind you this report was concluded in 1981. That's over 25 years ago. Are you daft? Because EVERYTHING has remained UNCHANGED in EVERY WAY since 1981.

Were you even alive at that point? I know I wasn't!

Have you looked at the differences in the motorcycle industry as far as sales figures, as well as models sold in CC's? An 883 harley was considered a GIRL'S BIKE, but a 750 (749cc) Honda was one of the most powerful bikes on the planet and easily made twice the horses of a sportster.

Read the MAIDS report and come back to me with a real response. It was published in 1999. Then you might actually have an argument.

Isn't it amazing what a few google searches will do?

[hordak]

Originally Posted by likearock4x4

You can make stats say anything you want them to say if you twist them a little.

These stats don't have anything to do with experience level do they???

That's a good point.And It could very well be the case.The problem with stats is that people tend to pick and choose which ones to use.Or ignore the ones that do not support their point .I Can't tell you how many times people tell newbies they shouldn't ride without taking the MSF BRC based on old hurt report stats (which was compiled before the BRC course even existed but that's a different story) Yet they offer the advice of bringing your new bike home on the side streets and avoiding the expressway even though according the same study your much safer cruising the super slab at 70 then traveling through all those intersections at 35 mph.

And your right .Stats can be twisted.That is why the government making stricter laws (especially nanny protect us from ourselves laws) based on cherry picked statistics that lump us into groups instead of seeing us as individuals is a very bad Idea. That is why I don't agree with the Tiered licensing program. And that is why you can't ask "would you recommend a 600 cc super sport to a noob?" To many variable based on the individual to answer that question

[RichLockyer]

Originally Posted by JimmyD

I might remind you this report was concluded in 1981. That's over 25 years ago.

Good point... I've seen a couple of references to this report lately, and though I have a lot of respect for Mr Hough, I agree that a 1981 report is too old to be of ANY use regarding statistics.

[JimmyD]

Originally Posted by RichLockyer

Good point... I've seen a couple of references to this report lately, and though I have a lot of respect for Mr Hough, I agree that a 1981 report is too old to be of ANY use regarding statistics.

I have a lot of respect for the Hurt report as well, mostly because it's pro-helmet. But this is really the first time I've seen it used against liberal ideas like tiered licensing... ? It was one of the first reports to give helmet laws any real merit.

By the way Rich, you pointed out that you wear a helmet, not by choice. I gotta come clean and admit that when I'm using my bicycle in the winter, if my "ride" is less than 5 minutes I generally don't wear a bicycle helmet. It IS law but its not enforced here.

The relevance of this is, were it not law to wear a motorcycle helmet I'd probably not wear mine if I were going to the store for a carton of milk. Not that I don't STRONGLY believe in helmet laws but out of my own cynicism that I'd just plain get lazy on some days and day #(%* it, I dont want to find my helmet under my pile of clothes.

I'm actually quite moderate, however I don't really have a lot of faith in people's ability to think for themselves and that's why I'm for such things as federal safety laws. I respect people's freedom to choose, I just don't always respect their reasoning.

[hordak]

Originally Posted by JimmyD

Again, that's fine and dandy, but tiered countries have horsepower restrictors for every major bike model. If the 250 is making 36 hp, 40 hp, whatever, the bike has to be restricted to 33hp, and IS by manufacturers. For that matter, if certain bikes are popular, there are kits made to restrict them to 33hp. I'm no expert at all, but ask anyone from england, and they'll tell you it's nothing to get a GSX-R 750 restricted from 125hp to 33 hp, if you want it bad enough and are willing to pay for the kit.



Yes and no. It depends on the type of bike. You might not know it but a Honda ACE 750 is putting out about 45HP at the crank. My EX eats them for breakfast. A Vulcan 900 puts out about 60HP. Again, my EX will eat them for lunch. What's your point? A ZX7 (749cc) puts out about 120 HP and eats my EX in its sleep.

What's my point? CC's mean nothing. Horsepower is the only RELATIVE measurement, because a ZX-6 puts out MORE horsepower than the Vulcan 2000 does, a bike with over 3 times the displacement.

What does this prove? Statistics are fine and dandy and can really help you prove a point if you throw a bunch of numbers at someone who doesn't know what he's talking about.

But I'm not an idiot and I realize that you didn't even reply to my first rebuttal. I can google too, you know.

You made a point. 251-500cc are yadda yadda yadda. What is your point again? Why are you even against tiered licensing? Are you one of those "blah blah blah my freedom to drive an overpowered sportbike, my freedom to kill myself as I see fit is being endangered" right wingers?



I might remind you this report was concluded in 1981. That's over 25 years ago. Are you daft? Because EVERYTHING has remained UNCHANGED in EVERY WAY since 1981.

Were you even alive at that point? I know I wasn't!

Have you looked at the differences in the motorcycle industry as far as sales figures, as well as models sold in CC's? An 883 harley was considered a GIRL'S BIKE, but a 750 (749cc) Honda was one of the most powerful bikes on the planet and easily made twice the horses of a sportster.

Read the MAIDS report and come back to me with a real response. It was published in 1999. Then you might actually have an argument.

Isn't it amazing what a few google searches will do?

Your right. HP is more important then CC's. However I live in the US where legislators don't have that kind of sense. Here in the peoples republic of California they have banned certain firearms not because there more dangerous the average hunting rifle but because the look more dangerous. My Ninja 500 cost more to insure and is classified as a sports bike, because it has fairing's and R in the name even though it doesn't compare to most modern sports bikes that the insurance companies see as such a big risk. Because most insurance companies rate by CC's and style that is what the government would do.

I am well aware of the fact the hurt report is outdated. However most people still it support points about training a gear so the other info could be used as well.

I looked over the MAIDS report (don't have it open in front of me) and it seemed to me that most motorcycle accidents were cause perception error and rider error is still just a small cause of motorcycle accedents.Like someone mentioned earlier, Not paying attention and getting hit at 40 mph on a 250 rebel or a gsxr 600 is the same thing. Besides 33 hp might be great for people in Europe but for people who commute 20 miles to work on the freeway every day it might not be enough.

Why am I agents tiered licensing. Because I believe in a free market economy where a private parties purchase should be based his or her money and desire and not on some bureaucrats idea of a need.

Imagine if they did pass it. You go to renew your registration on a bike you have driven safely for a few years and the lady behind the counter says, Sorry sir but based on our studies most people in your experience group can't properly handle that much bike. So park it in the garage and come back in 2 years when WE think your ready.
Great idea eh komrade.

[ervins]

Originally Posted by bennice

Well, there's more to it than just that. For a newb rider a 250/500 (or other non-SS bike) could serve multiple purposes. It would provide some road experience while making it harder to get in certain bad situations, and also serve as a kick around, fun tool on the cheap. For me, when I had both the 250 and the 600 I found myself riding the 250 to work more often the the 6R. The ergos were better for riding around in traffic, and the gas mileage was unbeatable. The only place it lacked was acceleration, but that's not a significant issue during rush hour unless someone wanted their face imprint on the SUV ahead of them. And I could still easily out-accelerate and brake faster than anything else on the road.

True in traffic a small bike is great not just for getting between cars but for gas...Ergos on my 10R are better than my 636 and 600rr while on the move...At stops, my 636 was dead on ergonomic for me. For me the power is a need to go up pretty big hills (I have a few to deal with) where you are lane splitting not just short distances but miles of parked traffic. The 750 would be fun there and not to say the 636 was not but on my 10R, I am shifting less (I keep certain RPMs). I love to just turn the throttle and go...Not wait for the power build up...That is where the 10R is just king on the streets. However because of the 10R handlind, it is not as responsive IMO compared to my 636. The FZR was a comfy bike and always eye them on CL...

[ervins]

Originally Posted by RichLockyer

30"? Wow...
Well... my former boss's son was very happy with his TTR125 L/E

Short guy and do not mind the tip toe...But I want something I feel comfy on...Me and a friend who is also interested in getting a dirtbike went looking after the bike show...He is 6'1"...So he was good on a few of them...The little bikes seemed all I could do But yeah I do not want to forgo any power when you mentioned I can tweak it a bit to fit me. That helped a lot.

[ervins]

Originally Posted by RichLockyer

The TTR series is a "trail bike" and doesn't have the power or the suspension "oomph" for use on the track.

They are fine for dirt roads and maybe even light sand, but they aren't going to be able to hold up to the abuse of jumps, or have the power for serious sand dunes or hill climbing.

For a smaller rider, I would look at the 125 (there are two, you want the one with the larger rear tire)... the problem with the 250 (and the old 230), like the Honda CRF230, is that they are overweight for the limited power, IE: Pigs.

The advantage of the TTR series over the YZ/WR is that the engines are air cooled, so you don't need to worry about sticks and rocks damaging your radiators (mine are fine, but I put guards on them).

I believe top speed for the TTR series ends up around 45-50, though the 250 might do better.
Even the YZ250F tops out at around 65 or 70, but that's because of the low gearing for the track. The same engine in the WR250F tops at around 85 (been there).

This ehlps Rich...I was just on CL looking.

[ervins]

Originally Posted by daemon

as a riding cohort say's to me all the time.
she will point to her head and say "it's between here"(points to her head) "and here"(points to her wrist)
RESPONSIBILITY

That there is where it all lies...I have the chance right now to buy most anything I want (HAHA I bought new home theater to replace old that was 7 years old) however, I have to be responsible with the way I spend my money, I have a mortgage, car insurance, bike insurance, utilities, etc. It is easy to just shop shop shop and forget that you have a responsibility to pay your bills and not live like some buddies who go paycheck to paycheck. They have homes but are always talking about needing money...I keep telling them to save. Same goes for riding...I tell people who see my bike and talk to me, yeah the bike is great but it has a ton of power to go X mph but, I can not get stupid on it.

I liked what your friend said...She is smart.