Oil Changes

[A2rider]

How's business, Bruce? 4 shops have shut down within 60 miles of here so far.

[Bruce McCrary]

It pretty well sucks... But I expect that for a couple of reasons.

The industry is in a slump. Big time. I'm hearing now that most folks are reporting are down between 18% ~ 25% depending upon who you talk to.

Our business is off waaay more than that because collectively "we" can't slap our asses with both hands tied behind our backs. It's actually embarrassing... There are only two directions this place can go. Sold or out of business.

Bruce

[flyfan]

Originally Posted by A2rider

OK, question for the oil gurus.

How long does it take oil to degrade before it's no longer usable?

I'm not talking about oil that has been ran in a motor, just sitting there, breaking down?

Does synthetic last longer than regular in open conditions?

The reason I ask this is that when I worked at a fast oil change place, I was told that the oil degrades when exposed to air. Is this true?

I'm definately not an oil guru. There is alot of good info here.
Motorcycle Info and Accessories

Keith

[KwakaKZ1000]

I change mine every 2000miles and at the end of the season.

[A2rider]

Originally Posted by Bruce McCrary

It pretty well sucks... But I expect that for a couple of reasons.

The industry is in a slump. Big time. I'm hearing now that most folks are reporting are down between 18% ~ 25% depending upon who you talk to.

Our business is off waaay more than that because collectively "we" can't slap our asses with both hands tied behind our backs. It's actually embarrassing... There are only two directions this place can go. Sold or out of business.

Bruce

The place I worked for finally closed all three shops, and didn't pay the employees for the last 3 weeks they worked. And a Yamaha/Polaris shop closed in West plains, MO earlier this week. I'm hoping the good shops stay open, and you can find a job if your place goes down the tubes.

[bross]

From the Amsoil website...

SERVICE LIFE
For “on-road” use in engines and transmissions, change AMSOIL MCF and AMSOIL engine oil filter at twice the motorcycle manufacturer change interval or one year, whichever comes first. Change other brand oil filters at standard intervals.

For “off-road” use in engines and transmissions, change AMSOIL MCF at the standard motorcycle manufacturer change interval.

For racing or in engines modified from the original factory design, no change interval recommendation is made. Oil changes are at the owner’s discretion.

[ervins]

2K miles for me.

[Svetlana]

I treat it like my car- every 3k miles OR every 4/5 months (whichever comes first).

[bross]

Man you people change your oil a lot! Just found this interesting link...
http://www.nordicgroup.us/oil.htm#Recreational%20Oil%20Changing

just a snippet

"Recreational Oil Changing
The term "recreational oil changer" was coined to define people that change their oil far more than necessary because they actually enjoy doing it. It's easy to understand the psychology behind the recreational oil changing. It's the visceral feel of the tools, the victory when that old oil filter breaks free, the hot dirty oil pouring out, the joy of oiling of the gasket on the new filter, that new copper or fiber gasket on the drain plug, the clean clear oil going in, and the sense of accomplishment when you start the car, the oil light comes on for a moment, then goes out. For $8-10 in oil and parts, it's pretty cheap entertainment, but if people would be content to do it only when it provides some benefit to the vehicle it would be better.

The 3000 Mile Myth
The 3000 mile oil change interval has been pounded into people's heads for decades. It had a scientific basis when engines used non-multi-weight, non-detergent oil. It no longer has any scientific basis, but it is still being promoted by certain entities, most notably the oil change industry in the United States. This myth is also sometimes known as the "Cheap Insurance Myth."

The 3000 Mile Fact
There are still vehicles that need 3K oil changes, but it's not because the oil goes bad after 3K miles. One example is the Saturn S series. These vehicles have a timing chain system that is very sensitive to clean oil because oil pressure is used as hydraulic fluid to ratchet up the timing chain tensioner. If varnish forms in the timing chain tensioner bore then this system can fail and the chain will become loose and eventually break. Dealers have gone as far as tearing out the normal service schedule (6000 miles) and leaving only the severe service schedule. If your engine is destroyed (under warranty) by a failed timing chain then the dealer will legitimately request evidence of oil changes. Unfortunately this problem usually won't manifest itself during the warranty period.

The Dark Oil Myth
Dark oil does not indicate the need for an oil change. The way modern detergent motor oil works is that minute particles of soot are suspended in the oil. These minute particles pose no danger to your engine, but they cause the oil to darken. A non-detergent oil would stay clearer than a detergent oil because all the soot would be left on the internal engine parts and would create sludge. If you never changed your oil, eventually the oil would no longer be able to suspend any more particles in the oil and sludge would form. Fortunately, by following the manufacturer's recommended oil change interval, you are changing your oil long before the oil has become saturated. Remember, a good oil should get dirty as it does it's work cleaning out the engine. The dispersant should stop all the gunk from depositing in the oil pan.

The only real way to determine whether oil is truly in need of changing is to have an oil analysis performed. Since most people don't want to bother with this, it's acceptable to err heavily on the safe side and simply follow the manufacturer's recommended change interval for severe service. There are still a few cars that specify 3K intervals for severe service, but not many. If you look at countries other than the U.S., the oil recommended change interval is much higher than even the normal interval specified by vehicle manufacturers in the U.S."

[VulcanRev]

Originally Posted by N3FOLN3FOL

One thing I know it is true for brake fluid.

Absolutrely true. Brake fluid is hygroscopic. Meaning it will absorb moisture right out of the air. If given long enough to sit, it will absorb right through a plastic container, and certainly much more so when exposed to outside atmosphere.

Edit: Forgot to add that does not include Silcone-based brake fluid (DOT5). Only mineral based oils.

[Scruffy]

Once a year whether it needs it or not...
-Scruffy

Just kidding, I change it when I start consistently missing shifts, cleans out the clutch basket.

[Plato]

Originally Posted by bross

...The 3000 Mile Myth
The 3000 mile oil change interval has been pounded into people's heads for decades. It had a scientific basis when engines used non-multi-weight, non-detergent oil. It no longer has any scientific basis,...

The 3000 Mile Fact
There are still vehicles that need 3K oil changes, but it's not because the oil goes bad after 3K miles...

The only real way to determine whether oil is truly in need of changing is to have an oil analysis performed."[/i]

I mostly agree with these points, BUT -It must be pointed out things are slightly different when discussing oil run in our bikes. Multi-Wt oil run through our bike transmissions does shear down and can be out of recommended grade by 3k.

A 10W-40 that shears down to a 10W-30 is not a big problem if you live/ride in a very mild climate, but its not the best situation if you spend all summer cruising in 90+F temps (like me). Granted our Vulcans are tough and can probably survive such -but it is a situation to cosider when determining your oil change interval. And yes -I've done the oil analysis thing to find out

[jhester]

I change mine every 5-6K, but I use Mobil 1 syn. I have used it in my 97 s-10since I bought it and only change the oil every 15-20k miles. It has 197k on it and I recently hade to change the intake gasket, no gunk no nothing. I even had my neighbor, who is a cert. BMW mechanic to take a look at it and he couldn't believe I only change my oil that often. I love Mobil 1 and plan on keeping it in the 900. BTW, I use 20-50 in the bike.

[Plato]

Well, looks like this thread keeps getting revived

Did we resolve the open container rule (no, no, not alcohol -OIL) ???

I just did my spring time oil changes (I now have 2 bikes) going from Rotella 5W-40 to my warm weather oil of choice 15W-50 M1 Goldcap. But I always have some left over in the big 5 gallon jugs and that open container of clean tasty M1 will likely sit for a year in its original jug before being used. Is there a problem with that -I find it hard to believe a wiff of fresh air will cause it any harm in this condition, but would like to know for sure

[rbentnail]

Originally Posted by Plato

Well, looks like this thread keeps getting revived

Did we resolve the open container rule (no, no, not alcohol -OIL) ???

I just did my spring time oil changes (I now have 2 bikes) going from Rotella 5W-40 to my warm weather oil of choice 15W-50 M1 Goldcap. But I always have some left over in the big 5 gallon jugs and that open container of clean tasty M1 will likely sit for a year in its original jug before being used. Is there a problem with that -I find it hard to believe a wiff of fresh air will cause it any harm in this condition, but would like to know for sure

The leftovers is what I use in mowers, weedeaters, tillers, etc. I don't think I've ever bought oil specifically for any of them.

[bross]

Here's what I use...



j/k people, I saw this at an antique store and had to grab a pic.

When's the last time you needed one of these to open a quart of oil

[ChevelleSSLS6]

Originally Posted by bross

Here's what I use...



j/k people, I saw this at an antique store and had to grab a pic.

When's the last time you needed one of these to open a quart of oil

did you stock up back in the day or can you still get oil like that? It's gotta be worth something in those old school containers. Yes, there are people out there who collect old garage memorobilia like that.

About oil, if the vehicle is used for short trips, acids and combustion byproducts, as well as condensation from heating and cooling cycles will accumulate in the oil. It's best to give it a good run every month or so just to boil off the condensation and change the oil early to get rid of the acids which eat bearings... my uncle has a nice buick (77 Electra 225) that got that way after he sold it to his sister who drove it every day, but only for a couple of miles.

[bross]

Originally Posted by ChevelleSSLS6

did you stock up back in the day or can you still get oil like that? It's gotta be worth something in those old school containers. Yes, there are people out there who collect old garage memorobilia like that.

About oil, if the vehicle is used for short trips, acids and combustion byproducts, as well as condensation from heating and cooling cycles will accumulate in the oil. It's best to give it a good run every month or so just to boil off the condensation and change the oil early to get rid of the acids which eat bearings... my uncle has a nice buick (77 Electra 225) that got that way after he sold it to his sister who drove it every day, but only for a couple of miles.

I took Jodie's car in to have the wheels balanced, and when I picked it up they said "You just drive a lot of short trips? Right?" I said yes that's right, it's my wife's car and she drives about 3km to work. They had tested the battery and saw it was weak. Suggested a good highway run. You can't slip anything by your mechanic, sheesh! So I got to go flog the car for nice long highway run.

[BikerBeagle]

I'm 99% certain that oil doesn't break down 1) after a certain period or 2) simply exposed to air ...at least, none of the current plastic jugs and containers I've seen are air-tight and I have yet to see an expiration date on them.

[bross]

Oil Color, Lubrication Ability and Contamination Level

It is a common misconception that an oil’s color is an indication of how “dirty” it is. This is not true. It is often a common tactic used at quick lubes and service centers; the technician pulls the dipstick and wipes it on a white shop cloth and shows the customer how “black and dirty” it is. Any oil will turn black after a short period of use. Some oils may stay “clean” looking longer than others, but eventually they all will turn black. This is perfectly normal.

When someone tells me how “clean” their oil is because they have pulled the dipstick and it looks clean I always tell them that it will eventually turn black. They also tell me when they pull the dipstick and it has becomes black and “dirty” it will require changing. That’s about the time I will pull my dipstick in one of my trucks and show them how black and “dirty” the oil is. I will then produce my latest oil analysis test report that provides laboratory chemical and spectrographic test data confirming that the oil perfectly suitable for continued service.

In general, the color of an oil does not have any bearing on its lubrication ability or whether or not the oil is suitable for continued use*. Most oil and especially diesel engine oil will turn black in the first few hours of operation due to contaminates generated by the combustion process and soot particles. It is the job of the filtration system to filter out the larger sized soot particles that can cause engine wear and the additive package of the oil to neutralize and hold in suspension the soot particles that are too small for the filter to trap and hold.

* Under certain conditions such fuel dilution, water contamination or glycol contamination, for example, the color can provide insight that something is mechanically wrong and in need of repair and/or additional analysis, however under normal operating conditions without mechanical problems present the black color which is commonly referred to as “dirty oil” in the vehicle servicing industry does not have any bearing on its lubrication ability.

The only way to accurately determine an oils lubricating value or contamination level is through (spectrographic) oil analysis. Oil analysis is common practice used regularly in commercial, industrial and fleet operations and can also be used for passenger cars, light trucks or any other application.

The useful life of an engine oil is dependent on several factors such as the quality of the oil, additive package blended in the oil and the TBN level of the oil (the ability of an oil to neutralize acidic by-products of combustion), type of fuel, equipment condition, type and operating environment of the equipment and the type of filtration.

The filtration system and the oil are vital tools for preserving engine life. A highly efficient oil filter is essential to protect an engine by removing both liquid abrasive contaminants held in suspension by the oil. It must be stated and understood with critical importance that there are wide variances in the quality of motor oils. Certain lower quality oils do not have quality base stock oils and additive packages to support long drain intervals while other higher quality oils can have significantly longer drain intervals. There are two oil manufacturers that I am aware of that make a premium quality synthetic motor oil that has standard recommended drain interval of 25,000 miles/1-year and one oil manufacturer has a 35,000 mile/1-year premium quality severe service synthetic oil with standard filtration or no oil changes with by-pass filtration and oil analysis monitoring. The subject of extended drain intervals and synthetics will be discussed in later sections.

Also keep in mind that the micron rating of an engine oil filter means absolutely nothing unless the efficiency (particle capture percentage) of the filter is stated also. If a filter is stated to be a “10 micron filter” but the efficiency graph shows it only traps 5% of the 10 micron particles then it isn’t doing much good at filtering out 10 micron particles. Oil filtration and wear particles will be discussed in detail in section 17.