how to test a starter relay

[jon_chew]

Hiya,

quick down low:

85 zx600 ninja

my starter works fine (connected the battery straight to the starter, and bike started)

my switch works fine up to the junction box (tested with multimeter)

However, do not know how to test the starter relay (or solenoid). checked the signal from the junction box, and got nothing going to the starter relay. What should it be getting? Shoudl it just short the two ends?

Thanks!

[StarGate]

The starter button applies the +12 voltage to trip the starter relay. You should find 2 large wires and 2 smaller wires on the starter relay. The 2 large ones are the +12 input from the battery and the +12 output to the starter. The 2 smaller ones are the +12 input from the starter button and a ground.

[jon_chew]

ohhh...

see, i knew how a solenoid works, but i thought that the small wires side needed a smaller voltage or something. so does that mean, to test the solenoid, i can connect the large wires from the 12 volt to the starter, and then the small wires just across the 12 volt battery?

This should just test the solenoid right?

( because i've taken a multimeter, and saw that the two wires coming from the junction box to the small wires of the solenoid have no voltage change even when the start button is pressed. but i checked the start button before the junction box, and it works)

[StarGate]

If you have +12 to the start button and +12 out of the start button when pressed and you don't get +12 on the small wire at the solenoid then you have a bad wire or connector between the start button and solenoid. Theres no need to test the solenoid if you're not getting power to it but if you still want to test it do this. Remove all wires except the small ground. With meter set to continuity/ohm's and connected to the 2 large wire connectors you should read open or infinite. Now apply +12 to the small connector where the start button normally connects. The meter should now read 0 or a very low ohm reading.

[jon_chew]

So if i do indeed have 12 V comming out of the starter button and going into the junction box, but NOT 12 V coming out of the junction box going into the solenoid, than it's most probably a junction box problem, right? How can i test the junction box?
I can't take it apart, because it's rivited in!

thanks!

[StarGate]

Yes, voltage in and no voltage out = bad part. I'm not sure what "junction box" your bike has. I'm not aware of a riveted junction box being used on a bike. Are you refering to the fuse box? Can you post a picture of it?

[jon_chew]

With meter set to continuity/ohm's and connected to the 2 large wire connectors you should read open or infinite. Now apply +12 to the small connector where the start button normally connects. The meter should now read 0 or a very low ohm reading.

so i did this. it definetly is infinte resistance with nothing attached. but i put +12 across the small side and saw a spark and the solenoid vibrated. however, no change in continuity.

are you sure i can just put a direct +12 across the smaller side? seems to me that the spark suggest no real resistance or something, and that i'm kind of shorting it.

any pointers would be great.

Has anyone looked at an 85 ninja's junction box, so i know why the start button is sending the signal but not outputing it? thanks!

[StarGate]

The small side wires only connect to a coil of wire inside and when you apply the 12v all you do is make an electromagnet that trips the relay and connects the more heavy duty set of contacts for the higher amps needed to power the starter. So in a sense, you are connecting to a short. If Kawasaki has made or used a solenoid on any of their motorcycles that opperates on something other than 12 vdc, I'm not aware of it but it is possible. If anyone knows of anything different being used, please chime in. As stated before, I don't have a schematic for your bike so I don't have a clue what junction box you have.

[jon_chew]

hey stargate,

i included the schematics for you. 05.jpg has my junction box circuit (e1/e2 canada model) and 26.jpg has my entire electric circuit.

now, i tested that the starter button is sending 12 volts to the junction box, (black/red wire from the starter through the rectifier, then a black wire into the left side of the junction box on 26.jpg), but there is no 12 volt output from the yellow/red from the junction box to the starter solenoid (smaller wires)...

so obviously, somewhere in the junction box circuit there is something preventing the 12 volt signal from being sent to the starter. So i was thinking of shorting the signal before the junction box, so the 12 V from the starter button goes directly to the starter (black wire, to the yellow and red wire)..

what do you think? is that dangerous, since it bypasses the smaller relays in the junction box?)

do i need to use a big enough wire, in case any current needs to be sent?

thanks alot!

[StarGate]

Well the pins on the J box schematic don't match up to the bike schematic. There are 13 shown on one and 15 shown on the other and theres no way to match the wire colors up with where they connect at the J box so I can't be sure but I don't see why that wouldn't work. I guess you are just trying to get the bike going again and can't locate another J box? Based on the readings you say you get the J box has to be defective so getting another one would be the best fix but your circumvention should at least get the bike to start unless there is a problem with the solenoid that caused the J box to go bad as well. Have you tried applying 12 volt directly to the solenoid at the red/yellow connector? That should turn the motor over and if it doesn't then there are more problems.

[jon_chew]

hiya stargate,

i'm not sure if it's good or bad, but i tested out the junction box. fuse tests, relay tests, and diode tests - they're all good. i was thinking that the starter relay inside the junction box was dead, but i tested it with the book's method and it works (on 5.jpg you simply unplug the junction box, and put 12 v power across pins 11 and 12 (ground on 11, +12V on 12) and there should be continuity across 11 and 13 (signified by the click of the relay inside the junction box).

so i did this, and there was a click and definetly continuity between 11 and 13. 11 is the +12 V signal coming from the starter button and a black wire. 13 is the yellow/red and goes to the starter solenoid. 12 seems to be my problem. it's green/yellow, and as far as i'm concerned should be grounded by the wire diagram, but for some reason also has +12 V when i press the starter button. probably a short somewhere?

so my junction box and starter solenoid are all fine - it's just that 11 + 12 both have +12V when the starter button is pressed, putting no voltage drop across the solenoid, and therefore no triggering of the starter relay circuit in the junction box(F in 05.jpg) and no output voltage on pin 13 (which goes to the starter solenoid.

I have no idea what to do, because the green/yellow wire (pin 12) should be connected to the clutch lever (by figure 26.jpg) and when the clutch is out, should be connected to the light green wire, which is also connected to the neutral switch which should be grounded... (and it is)... and i've checked for continuity between light green and yellow/green, and don't get a little - mayb 355 ohms, but not enough for direct current flow.

soo..... i'm a little frazzled by my own post.. (thanks so much for all your help stargate, btw)

does anyone know what i should try next? is it okay to simply connect pin 11 (+12 V from the starter button) to the starter solenoid output (pin 13) and bipass the starter circuit relay in the J box? isn't there a reason for this starter circuit relay in the first place?

[StarGate]

OK, I agree with what you have said and that explains a lot. I'm not sure where you should be looking but if it were me I would try this. Disconnect the yellow/green wire from the connector at the J box. Check for a ground on the wire then press the start button and test the voltage on the yellow/green wire to see if it is still ground or if it has +12. I suspect you have problems with some of the diodes shown on pin 14 of the J box instead of a short in the wire it's self. One thing that does bother me is that if you show a +12 on the yellow/green wire, and it appears to be grounded thru the neutral switch why aren't you seeing wires melting?