Mis-information Abounds

[Bruce McCrary]

Overheard at the parts counter of the shop I recently went to work at;

"The difference between a DOT helmet and a Snell one is that a DOT helmet is good up to a 65 mph crash and a Snell is good up to about 120."

This was said by a parts guy who has worked for the dealership for almost 9 years to a middle aged husband and wife buying their first motorcycle.

I went in the back and beat my (unprotected) head against the wall...

Bruce

[antiq]

Did you then beat the DA parts guy? What a maroon! To quote bugs.

[A2rider]

Originally Posted by Bruce McCrary

Overheard at the parts counter of the shop I recently went to work at;

"The difference between a DOT helmet and a Snell one is that a DOT helmet is good up to a 65 mph crash and a Snell is good up to about 120."

This was said by a parts guy who has worked for the dealership for almost 9 years to a middle aged husband and wife buying their first motorcycle.

I went in the back and beat my (unprotected) head against the wall...

Bruce

So did you show the guy the differences between DOT and Snell testing? Did you ask him how he came to the conclusions he spouted to the couple?

And put a helmet on the next time you beat your head against the wall! And not a 1/2 helmet either.

[A2rider]

You can show him this.


"Although their testing process is very similar, SMF requires their certified helmets to withstand a greater impact and absorb more force than the DOT standards.


DOT certification, however, is less regulated. The manufacturer performs their own tests and determines whether their helmets are DOT approved. Even though the manufacturer doesn't have to report their findings, the government does occasionally conduct limited tests or spot checks. Nevertheless, allowing each company to test their own equipment and not make them report their results means that the DOT certification is done by the honor system.

In 2001, DOT performed one of their spots tests on 40 helmets. There was a 20 percent failure rate with the AFX, Fulmer, HJC, M2R, NEXL, and THH helmets. Again, after the data was published, it was up to the manufacturer to bring their products into compliance.

While there's no guarantee a DOT-approved helmet has actually been tested, the purchase of a Snell-approved lid ensures that the product has been evaluated under scrutiny. A Snell-certified helmet also meets and exceeds the DOT standards."

[Nate]

Conventional Wisdom strikes again. Did he also tell them to never, under any circumstances, ever touch the front brake lever? I would expect him to be dispensing that sort of "safety" advice as well.

I suspect he ought to stick to the parts catalog.

[anrfknm]

Originally Posted by A2rider

You can show him this.


"Although their testing process is very similar, SMF requires their certified helmets to withstand a greater impact and absorb more force than the DOT standards.


DOT certification, however, is less regulated. The manufacturer performs their own tests and determines whether their helmets are DOT approved. Even though the manufacturer doesn't have to report their findings, the government does occasionally conduct limited tests or spot checks. Nevertheless, allowing each company to test their own equipment and not make them report their results means that the DOT certification is done by the honor system.

In 2001, DOT performed one of their spots tests on 40 helmets. There was a 20 percent failure rate with the AFX, Fulmer, HJC, M2R, NEXL, and THH helmets. Again, after the data was published, it was up to the manufacturer to bring their products into compliance.

While there's no guarantee a DOT-approved helmet has actually been tested, the purchase of a Snell-approved lid ensures that the product has been evaluated under scrutiny. A Snell-certified helmet also meets and exceeds the DOT standards."

thanks for that bit of information tina. i've been riding 44 years and knew of the different test standards, but never knew DOT was voluntary.

[pitchinguy]

Originally Posted by Bruce McCrary

Overheard at the parts counter of the shop I recently went to work at;

"The difference between a DOT helmet and a Snell one is that a DOT helmet is good up to a 65 mph crash and a Snell is good up to about 120."

This was said by a parts guy who has worked for the dealership for almost 9 years to a middle aged husband and wife buying their first motorcycle.

I went in the back and beat my (unprotected) head against the wall...

Bruce

Smooth move......wrong head!

[A2rider]

Originally Posted by anrfknm

thanks for that bit of information tina. i've been riding 44 years and knew of the different test standards, but never knew DOT was voluntary.

Here is a really good article is you're interested.

Motorcycle Helmet Design, Helmet Standards and Head Protection - Gear Box - Motorcyclist Online

[BikerBeagle]

Originally Posted by A2rider

Nevertheless, allowing each company to test their own equipment and not make them report their results means that the DOT certification is done by the honor system.

Wow, I didn't know that.

It's a good thing my helmet is SNELL certified ...but, oh wait, crap, it's a half helmet ...nevermind, my face is going to fall off anyways.

[V2K_CCTX]

I love the idiocracy some of these guys make up!

[NCDave]

Originally Posted by Bruce McCrary

Overheard at the parts counter of the shop I recently went to work at;

"The difference between a DOT helmet and a Snell one is that a DOT helmet is good up to a 65 mph crash and a Snell is good up to about 120."

This was said by a parts guy who has worked for the dealership for almost 9 years to a middle aged husband and wife buying their first motorcycle.

I went in the back and beat my (unprotected) head against the wall...

Bruce

Shoulda used a snell helmet Bruce!

[MustBeNice]

Were they looking at full face or 1/2 helmets? Inquiring minds want to know!!

[A2rider]

Originally Posted by MustBeNice

Were they looking at full face or 1/2 helmets? Inquiring minds want to know!!

Put the sticks away, we had enough stirring yesterday.

[NCDave]

Originally Posted by A2rider

Put the sticks away, we had enough stirring yesterday.

I obviously missed something yesterday!

[A2rider]

Originally Posted by NCDave

I obviously missed something yesterday!

You didn't miss anything. A few nice chaps had a discussion about cooter, trailer parks, and getting a life.

[NCDave]

Originally Posted by A2rider

You didn't miss anything. A few nice chaps had a discussion about cooter, trailer parks, and getting a life.

Oh...I could have added to that. I used to live in a trailer park!

[Bruce McCrary]

Whoa. I go to work and look what I find when I get back.

OK, here we go. This should be fun!

Originally Posted by antiq

Did you then beat the DA parts guy? What a maroon! To quote bugs.

No. I'm the oldest and arguably the most experienced one there. I'm trying real hard not to be the know it all old guy.

I did however email him a copy of the Motorcyclist magazine article called "Blowing the lid off helmets". We'll see if he reads it.

Originally Posted by Nate

Conventional Wisdom strikes again. Did he also tell them to never, under any circumstances, ever touch the front brake lever? I would expect him to be dispensing that sort of "safety" advice as well.

Not that I heard. BUT! Some time ago I got into an on line discussion with some folks who told me that I was foolish for using my front brake for anything more than panic stops. THEN, I spoke to a local MSF instructor who told me the same thing! AND later heard from a motor patrol officer that told me his instructor threatened to take the front brake lever off the bikes if he saw another student touch the lever!!!

Obviously none of these folks were ever involved in any type of motorcycle racing and/or figured out there is a lot of control to be had with that lever on the right side of the handlebars.

But that's another story...

Originally Posted by V2K_CCTX

I love the idiocracy some of these guys make up!

If you can't dazzle 'em with your brilliance, baffle 'em with your B.S.!!! (*groan*)

Originally Posted by MustBeNice

Were they looking at full face or 1/2 helmets? Inquiring minds want to know!!

Honestly, I don't know. They didn't have any with them at the counter at the time.

Originally Posted by A2rider

Put the sticks away, we had enough stirring yesterday.

Originally Posted by NCDave

I obviously missed something yesterday!

Originally Posted by A2rider

You didn't miss anything. A few nice chaps had a discussion about cooter, trailer parks, and getting a life.

Originally Posted by NCDave

Oh...I could have added to that. I used to live in a trailer park!

I caught part of that... It's an emotional subject (like which motor oil is best) that has no easy or right for everyone answer.

Speaking of which... Hey y'all, watch this!!!

*note* Not picking on you Tina, just responding to the quote, OK?

Originally Posted by A2rider

"Although their testing process is very similar, SMF requires their certified helmets to withstand a greater impact and absorb more force than the DOT standards."

The problem with that statement is that when you need to remember that your brain is floating in fluid inside your noggin' and that the cause of a brain injury is usually related to the brain 'bouncing' off each side of your skull. Snell helmets are 'stiffer' which means your head also absorbs more of the 'greater' impact than in a DOT only approved helmet. In other words, a DOT only absorbs more of the impact of your head moving inside the helmet where as a SNELL approved helmet is stiffer causing your head to take a greater impact inside the helmet itself.

Originally Posted by A2rider

DOT certification, however, is less regulated. The manufacturer performs their own tests and determines whether their helmets are DOT approved.

Wellllll... Yes and no. The manufacturers do test their designs and shells, but they do not make the 'determination'. It either passes FMVSS218 or it doesn't. They perform their own tests so that they can streamline the process from development to production. For the most part new shell designs are tested independently before being put into production and on the market. The manufacturers do this to protect themselves as much as anything else.

Originally Posted by A2rider

Even though the manufacturer doesn't have to report their findings, the government does occasionally conduct limited tests or spot checks. Nevertheless, allowing each company to test their own equipment and not make them report their results means that the DOT certification is done by the honor system.

I have been told that DOT 'spot checks' every year. I've seen reports showing which helmets passed and which helmets didn't and why they didn't. So, there is some reporting going on...

Originally Posted by A2rider

In 2001, DOT performed one of their spots tests on 40 helmets. There was a 20 percent failure rate with the AFX, Fulmer, HJC, M2R, NEXL, and THH helmets. Again, after the data was published, it was up to the manufacturer to bring their products into compliance.

And if they didn't bring them up to standards then they couldn't put the "DOT APPROVED" sticker on the back. If the shell design doesn't pass FMVSS218 then it CANNOT carry the DOT approved label. Which lets face it, would be a marketing disaster in this country.

I'm familiar with the report mentioned and in the case of two of those manufacturers the helmets in question where then new modular style helmets and were prototypes that had not yet been released to the market. Another had issues with straps, not shell design. They had figured it out prior to the test mentioned and already had a recall in place.

Originally Posted by A2rider

While there's no guarantee a DOT-approved helmet has actually been tested, the purchase of a Snell-approved lid ensures that the product has been evaluated under scrutiny.

If the writer is referring to each individual helmet (I can't tell by the way it's written) I can assure you that they ARE NOT. The test destroys the helmet. What has been tested is the basic shell design, which can be used in different model helmets with approval as long as the design has not been altered.

The folks I've talked to about this all tell me that the SNELL certification is as much about collecting fees associated with being able to use the name as much as it is about being a safe product. I'm not saying that a SNELL rating isn't quality or whatever, just that there is a good deal of propaganda surrounding it and the assumed benefits of it aren't necessarily all that many believe it to be. A good case to prove the point would be the results of the Motorcyclist magazine articles tests. The helmet that they determined did the best job of actually protecting the riders noggin' during an impact was a $79.95 full coverage DOT approved ONLY helmet made by a relatively unknown company.

Go figure.

Helmet manufacturers that sell helmets in this country have to be some of the bravest people on earth. They are manufacturing and selling a product that if fails would leave them wide open to huge law suits. If they are to merely stay in business they HAVE to be on their game.

The folks I know that are in that business are passionate about building a quality product and constantly looking for ways to improve it.

Bruce

[sdbrit68]

Originally Posted by A2rider