Please Help Me... I'm New Here !!!!

[Newbie_3131]

ur absolutely right about both: I did mean carbs (my fuel injection terminology betrays me) and I probably would be lost in you shop and as far as your switching to EFI (which I would assume stands for Electronic Fuel Injection) You've got to let me see that man..! sounds like a cool little project, I'll post some pics as I go on

[Newbie_3131]

hey steell, is that 3406b like in a CAT???? what are you in trucking...???

[rstnick]

If you work on Diesels, then you should do fine with your 650.
Just give her a good going over, checking the condition of everything on the bike and fixing anything needed. Possably new tires if their older than 5 years, new brake pads, fluids etc.

Looks to be in fairly good shape.

This post on 650info has a list of what tires other 650 riders are using:
tires

[Newbie_3131]

well, I thought I should give you guys an update: yesterday we primed and painted the frame, today we primed and painted the exhaust system with 2000 degree paint, then re-installed, changed the valve cover gasket, changed the oil and filter (brushed the aluminum valve cover while it was out) installed brand new rear shocks, dropped off some parts at the body shop... tomorrow I'm up to re-jetting those carbs, installing those high performance filters... I'll post pics later

[OKC_Kent]

That jetting sounds like a good start with pods and a pipe.

[Newbie_3131]

well guys, I've gotten very delayed with this deal, but you know what? rather do it at this pace and get it right. Got the tires put on and the guy said the rear tire was badly misaligned and they were both badly out of balance. another update: remember at the beginning I said the day I broke down the bike stalled and when I tried to start it, the battery was like dead? well when I was cleaning the frame and prepping for paint I was moving the wiring out of the way and noticed the starter wire going into the case had been rubbing and the insulation had worn off, but because it was after the relay, it would only create a short when the starter was activated, so when I rode the bike for that little bit, it shook that wire just right, that when she stalled and I tried to start it, the short to ground pulled the juice out of the battery almost instantly.

[Newbie_3131]

will post more pics later

[Newbie_3131]

well, I've got the bike back together finally went on the road yesterday, noticed the bike has a miss to it, almost hesitating, very hard to start once the weather went below 60 degrees, I was reading the repair manual and it basically lists the points, coils and condensers as possible reasons, I disconnect 1 plug wire on the right, and get almost no difference in engine performance, 1 disconnect the one on the other side and the engine almost shuts down, so I know that's a good lead to follow, my question is this: these repair manuals, tell you basically where the stuff is, how to replace it and if you're lucky, how to test it, but it does not tell you how it all works together, no specific explanation on how things operate and what makes them work it tells me for example the condensers may be the fault of a hard start, but it doesnt tell me exactly what the condenser does, its the same with synchronzing the carbs and other stuff ... where can i find that kind of info? I am looking to educate miself as best I can, is there maybe some books u guys recommend?
PS. (@ least now I can ride around)

[9am53]

Did you change plugs when you put the pods and re-jetted? If you did then give them a look, if you are running lean (hard to start once it gets colder) they will be whitish...this will mean you may need to adjust the carbs again...

[Newbie_3131]

that's the next thing, I was having issues with the performance so I put the baffle back in, and re-installed (new) original sized jets, so although the inlet may have been opened by installing the filters the baffle should create enough backpressure to control the air flow. I think I might have a loose ground connection somewhere, the alternator doesnt seeem to be recharging the battery, my low beam headlight stoppped working, high beam is ok, by the way, is this like a motorcycle-specific headlight or is it something I can pick up at Walmart???

What do you mean when u say "adjust the carbs"? do you mean try a different jet size?

[kopcicle]

Originally Posted by Newbie_3131

What do you mean when u say "adjust the carbs"? do you mean try a different jet size?

Ask Mike ""MFolks" real nice like for his carb cleaning 101 and his links . ( Sorry Mike I have my hands full and have to run or I'd hunt down your previous posts)

~kop

[MFolks]

Carb Cleaning 101

By M. Shively

The elements of internal combustion engines are: correct fuel/air ratio, spark at right time, adequate cylinder compression.

There are many passageways and openings to check and clean. All are important in function and when obstructed or not working properly, have subtle to radical effects on engine performance. Vacuum leaks and carburetor synchronization also effect performance and should be inspected and adjusted following the below procedures.

Warning: Remove all rubber parts before you begin. These parts usually include vacuum diaphragms, needle valves, o'rings, hoses, and other parts. Spray cleaners will damage these parts. Do not disassemble individual carbs from the carb bracket.

Air & Fuel Passageways: Trace and learn individual fuel and air circuits from beginning to end. Machines can only drill straight through the cast passageways. To change direction, another angled passageway must be drilled. The union is plugged with a brass or bronze bead. Inspect and clean each passageway with spray cleaner, brushes/pipe cleaners/etc, and compressed air. Remove any discoloration and debris. Look for spray cleaner to exit from one or more passageways.

Jet Cleaning: Inspect jets by holding to light and look through them. You should see an unobstructed round hole. Clean the jets with one or more of the following: jet cleaning wires, soak solutions, carb spray cleaners and compressed air. Re-inspect jets after cleaning and install when clear of obstructions. Some main jets have paper-like gaskets. Most have metal spacers between the jet and the emulsion tube. Some screw directly into a brass emulsion tube which is machined for a 7mm wrench at its float chamber exposed base.

Inlet Fuel Valve: Inspect the needle valve & spring. Press down the tiny metal rod that protrudes from the butt or float end of the needle valve. The spring should move freely and return the rod to its location. Check the needle valve's seat area for a groove or other wear. It should appear highly polished. Some needle valve seats are rubber and wear may not be visible. Inspect the needle valve jet seat. You can clean the jet seat with Q-tips and semi-chrome polish if necessary.

Carb Body Castings: Blow air through the atmospheric vent holes located on the dome of each float bowl chamber. Air should exit via hoses or brass nipples. Inspect the emulsion tubes and passageways (cast towers that jets thread into) for discoloration and debris. Clean interior emulsion towers with a soft bristle gun cleaning brush. Clean each Venturi (main carb bore).

Needle Jets & Jet Needles: Clean the needle jets, jet needles, and passageway or tower that needle jet screws into. Clean the emulsion tube (pipe between needle jet and main jet) (Main Jet may screw into emulsion tube). Jet needles are part of the throttle slides. See below…

Throttle Slides: There are several types of throttle slides: Mechanical linkage, vacuum, diaphragm, and cable. Disassembling the jet needle from the slide is not always required for cleaning. If you have vacuum piston type throttle slides (large diameter solid metal slide), avoid cleaning the lubrication from sides and caps. If piston type check cap vents and passageways with air. Clean if necessary and re-lube. If you have rubber vacuum throttle diaphragms, inspect for dry-rot, defects, and tears by gently stretching rubber away from center. Do this until all areas around diaphragm have been inspected. Replace any defective part as described above. Clean carb body areas around diaphragm including air passageways and air jets. Diaphragms have a locator loop or tab fabricated into their sealing edge. Observe this locator upon reassembly. Avoid pinching the diaphragm when reinstalling caps.

Fuel Screws: Fuel screws have sharp tapered ends. Carefully turn one fuel screw in while counting the turns until it seats lightly. Warning: These screws are very easily damaged if over tightened into their seats. Record amount of "turns-in" and remove the fuel screw, spring, washer, and o'ring. The fuel screw is part of the enrichment (choke) circuit...clean passageways as described above. When carbs are assembled, spray low PSI compressed air into diaphragm air vents located at intake side of carbs. Throttle slides should rise, then fall when air is removed. Lightly lube external moving linkages. Reinstall carbs and follow through with carburetor synchronization.

Throttle Cables: Lubricate cables periodically. If cables are disconnected from carbs or removed for replacement, etc . . . remember cable routing and ensure proper reinstallation routing. Avoid bread-tying, sharp bends, and pinching cables. Adjust cables so throttle grip has about 5mm of play or throttle slides or butterfly valves may not open completely (full throttle)(wide full open).

Float Bowls: Inspect float bowls for sediment, gum or varnish, crystallization, and defects. Clean all pipes, tubes, passageways, and embedded jets with cleaners and compressed air. Remove and clean the drain screw and area. Inspect bowl gasket and replace if necessary. Clean and inspect overflow pipes and tubes, look for vertical cracks.

Floats: There are several types of float materials: plastic, brass, black composite, tin, and others. Handle floats carefully. Avoid bending, twisting, denting, or other means of mishandling. Most floats are adjustable by bending a small metal tab near the float axle end. Do not change the float adjuster tab unless tuning fuel service levels. Clean metal floats by soaking or by spraying cleaner and wiping clean. Other material type floats may require replacement if cleaning is necessary. Inspect the needle valve (float valve) and seat. Check needle valve's spring loaded pin. It should depress and return smoothly and without resistance. Check the needle valve's tip for a worn groove. Replace needle valve and seat if either symptom exists. These parts wear together and must be replaced as a set.

Synchronization: This is a fine adjustment performed usually and preferably with the carbs installed and the engine running. The unusual part is performed with gauged wire with the carbs on the work bench. Carburetor synchronizing balances Venturi vacuum at the exhaust side of each carburetor, resulting with smooth idling and optimized performance at all throttle openings. Synchronization is checked using a set of gauges which are either air vacuum type or liquid mercury type. The gauges are connected to vacuum ports on the intake manifolds via nipple tubes or if sealed with screws, sync gauge adapters will be needed. With the engine running at temperature, and with a fan or means of forced convection aimed onto the engine, the carbs fuel screws and idle are adjusted, then the synchronization is adjusted via adjustment screws on the carbs. A reserve fuel tank is recommended for convenience of accessing carbs during this procedure. See gauge instructions and repair manuals for detailed use of synchronization gauges.

Notes: While carbs are apart, record the jet sizes. Look for a very small number imprinted on the body of the jets. Verify that numbers are the same for all jets on models with in-line cylinders. A few transverse-4 models and V-engines, the inner and outer carbs use some different size jets and it's important to not mix them up. If you have dial or veneer calipers, measure and record float heights. Perform measurements with floats just touching needle valves, though not depressing the needle valve rods. Replace fuel and vacuum hoses. Be sure to use fuel rated hose for fuel. Install or replace in-line fuel filters. It's a good time to remove and clean interior petcock fuel filters. Inspect carb manifolds for dry-rotting, inspect all clamps and air ducts. Inspect, clean, lube, and/or replace air filter(s).
__________________________________________________ _______________

I got this on the Net somewhere, but it covers boiling the carbs in Lemon Juice:

Lemon Juice Carb Cleaning

If it was me, I'd pull the top covers off, pull the slides out, drop off the bottom bowls, remove pilots/mains. Then with the rest of the carbs still assembled boil them in some lemon juice. You'll need a big roaster pan, a little over a gallon of lemon juice (cooking supply stores), and an understanding wife/girlfriend cause the sh*ts gonna stink a little.

Boil them for about 15 minutes, then rinse them really well and blow them dry with compressed air (make sure all passages are clean). You'll be amazed at how clean they come in that short of a time.

I just did a set yesterday after hearing about it from a buddy who's used lemon juice on a couple dozen racks of carbs. After a couple of minutes at slow boil the lemon juice starts to foam up a little (careful not to boil over) and you can see all the sh*t just dissolving.

After boiling them for 15 minutes (might have to roll them around once to make sure you get the entire carbs) rinse them really well and blow them dry with compressed air. The carb bodies will be kinda chalky looking at this point. I used a toothbrush and PB blaster to put a little luster back into them and then put my internals back in.

I had pulled the bowls off, removed the floats, float needles and seats, jets, and air/pilot screws as well as the top covers and slides just to make sure no crap got itself wedged inside those passages.
After putting the carbs back together and bolting them up not only do they look great but the bikes running MUCH better with all the jet passages finally cleaned out.

[kopcicle]

tnx Mike !

[kawpaul]

Originally Posted by Newbie_3131

well, I've got the bike back together finally went on the road yesterday, noticed the bike has a miss to it, almost hesitating, very hard to start once the weather went below 60 degrees, I was reading the repair manual and it basically lists the points, coils and condensers as possible reasons, I disconnect 1 plug wire on the right, and get almost no difference in engine performance, 1 disconnect the one on the other side and the engine almost shuts down, so I know that's a good lead to follow, my question is this: these repair manuals, tell you basically where the stuff is, how to replace it and if you're lucky, how to test it, but it does not tell you how it all works together, no specific explanation on how things operate and what makes them work it tells me for example the condensers may be the fault of a hard start, but it doesnt tell me exactly what the condenser does, its the same with synchronzing the carbs and other stuff ... where can i find that kind of info? I am looking to educate miself as best I can, is there maybe some books u guys recommend?
PS. (@ least now I can ride around)

I stumbled upon this site a few weeks ago and it looks to have a lot of info you may find interesting. Motorcycle Repair Course

[Newbie_3131]

well u guys r gonna love this!!! i went out for a ride today, the ride went fairly well, we started late afternoon, fair weather, bike performs well, except at full throttle (or close to) i noticed the other day I can gradually accelerate and it will perform much better but once I reach 'bout 60mph I just need more RPM, I accel and it kindda chokes, I can tell the fuel/air mixture needs fixing, I assumed i just needed bigger jets to compensate for the Pod filters installed, (I want to go through inspection so I can remove the baffle, and then rejet) any way the bike ran ok till about 60mph, went someplace, laid the bike for an hour, then headed back, weather is still good but a couple degrees cooler (could air volume be affecting me? remember this bike is really hard to start in the cold), bike started hesitating really bad, I had to pull over a couple of times, then the RPM got stuck really high (almost 7krpm) I shut the bike off to protect the engine, shut off and restart a couple of times, played around with the idle adjustment screw, sometimes when I started it was ok, once I reved the engine RPM would go up but not come back down throttle cable felt ok, but I couldn't see anything in the dark. the bike hesitating for bad air/fuel mix I can understand (I assume it's too lean) but Why did the RPM go crazy on me??? oh yeah, by the way, my front caliper is hanging up now it seems like... what do you guys think is wrong with that?/???

[Newbie_3131]

site u recommended looks awesome thanks

[StarGate]

Running too lean or an air/vacuum leak can cause hangup like you describe although I've never seen one go up as high as 7k and hang there. Since you were riding when it started I'd take a closer look at the cable and see if something shifted during the ride also. The brakes hanging could be a few things. If the small holes in the master get clogged that could prevent the fluid from being able to run back into the master cylinder when the lever is released. It could also be trash in the caliper or an inner brake line breaking down and having a check valve effect on it.

[zoro]

Originally Posted by kawpaul

I stumbled upon this site a few weeks ago and it looks to have a lot of info you may find interesting. Motorcycle Repair Course

Very cool link there Paul! Thank You!

[zoro]

Originally Posted by Newbie_3131

well u guys r gonna love this!!! i went out for a ride today, the ride went fairly well, we started late afternoon, fair weather, bike performs well, except at full throttle (or close to) i noticed the other day I can gradually accelerate and it will perform much better but once I reach 'bout 60mph I just need more RPM, I accel and it kindda chokes, I can tell the fuel/air mixture needs fixing, I assumed i just needed bigger jets to compensate for the Pod filters installed, (I want to go through inspection so I can remove the baffle, and then rejet) any way the bike ran ok till about 60mph, went someplace, laid the bike for an hour, then headed back, weather is still good but a couple degrees cooler (could air volume be affecting me? remember this bike is really hard to start in the cold), bike started hesitating really bad, I had to pull over a couple of times, then the RPM got stuck really high (almost 7krpm) I shut the bike off to protect the engine, shut off and restart a couple of times, played around with the idle adjustment screw, sometimes when I started it was ok, once I reved the engine RPM would go up but not come back down throttle cable felt ok, but I couldn't see anything in the dark. the bike hesitating for bad air/fuel mix I can understand (I assume it's too lean) but Why did the RPM go crazy on me??? oh yeah, by the way, my front caliper is hanging up now it seems like... what do you guys think is wrong with that?/???

Hi Newbi, Welcome to the forum! Nice bike too! Your getting world class advice from the previous posters, theyre guys I respect so Ill try and measure up. Sounds like your running lean. You can place socks around the pods to restrict airflow and see if engine performance improves, this helps verifying if a lean condition exists. You need to drain and thoroughly clean both braking systems (front & rear) calipers and master cylinders replacing any obviously worn or broken parts. Its nothing short of amazing what old brake fluid can turn into when left unattended. Pay close attention to cleaning the two relief and return ports (small holes) inside the master cylinder reservoirs that StarGate mentioned. As far as the racing rpms thats indicative of several combined possibilities most of which are related to causes of a lean condition. Re-jetting and a thorough carb cleaning/tuning will fix most causes of a lingering rev. Throttle cable routing is a common cause in that a kink or sharp bend in the cable wont allow the throttle to snap closed as it should. Another cause is vacuum leaks and/or a carb slide hanging open. A dry dragging worn cable, or maladjusted cable can cause a lingering rpm. Youve made great progress on a real nice bike so hang in there and keep us updated, Good Luck!

[Newbie_3131]

thanks a lot u guys for all the great advice, I must confess that when I bought this bike I got it because I thought it would be a cheap ticket into the sport, not realizing what its previous sedentary life was gonna cost me, but you know what??? Although I probably would have had a lot less headaches with a newer bike, I have learned quite a bit (M still far off) doing all this mostly from you guys, thanks a lot. I appreciate your advice, and your time.

ps: I've been spending a lot of time on this, so I might have to lay off of it for a while, I'll keep you guys posted, thnx again. (I'll post pics of what the bike looks like now)