86 Ninja 600R - a few problems

timgeorgi · 05-15-2006

I've been cleaning up an 86 ninja that i was given. bike isn't in too bad of a condtion. i have to problems i havn't been able to resolve. 1st, the bike doesn't idle right. I have tried multiple times to clean, adjust, sync...the carbs. i've messed with the mixture screws (stock settings, a little rich, a little lean). I've soaked them, blown air through them, used carb cleaner... Let's just say, if there still dirty, i have no idea how to clean them any better. Problem seems to be the #4 cylinder. It isn't producing as much power as the other three. I figured this out by pulling the vac lines off the carbs one at a time. with the first 3, the engine rpms and sound change dramatically when i pull the vac line off the carb. With the #4, there is little to no change. The engine has strong compression (New rings and a valve job). It's got to either be fuel or ignition related. There is a strong spark so i think it's got to be fuel. How can i further test the idle cirucit in this carb?? Second problem is the rear shock. it's dripping oil. I don't think there is anything to do but replace it. I've been watching ebay, but havn't found an exact match yet. After looking on kawasaki's web site, it seems they used different shocks for each year bike...almost. The first 5 digits of the part number are the same, but the last 4 are different. it looks like the only compatable one would be from an 85 model. Does anyone know if there are internal differences in the parts form say an 87 or 88 model compared to the 86. from the pics, they look exactily the same except for the adjustment lever, which i would think could be swapped out. Any help on either of these problems would be great! Thanks!

wiredgeorge · 05-16-2006

I think that you just might be working on the bike's performance issues from the wrong end. FIRST, have you checked the bike's compression? If not, that is step 1! If you have compression issues, no amount of carb tuning will fix the problem. MOST compression problems a NEW owner has are that the valve clearances are NOT adjusted. If there is no valve clearance, the valve hang open a tad, lowering compression and as a result, the engine vacuum on the cylinder is down, hence the waste of time trying to tune the carbs. FIRST make sure your valve clearances are set and check compression as the compression problem MAY NOT be just valve clearance related but it make be worn pistons, cylinders or rings or the valves (or head components) may be shot. Come back with some compression readings and we can better progress from there. To test compression, by a compression gauge that press fits into your plug holes. It is best done when the engine is warm but it is critical to open your throttle all the way else you will have false readings. With plugs pulled, check each cyinder. I really don't know what your compression should be but would guess around 150 PSI in each cylinder. A shop manual will give you the spec plus there is a spec for the allowable difference between cylinders. If you find a cylinder out of spec, pour ONE teaspoon of oil down the plug hole and repeat the compression test. This "oil" test will indicate if you have ring sealing problems if the compression comes up quite a bit. This test points to worn pistons, cylinder, rings or a combination of all of them which is usually the case. Once you have established compression for the bike, you can move on in your troubleshooting but not before.

timgeorgi · 05-17-2006

OK....just to detail what has been done already...compression was low, but not unacceptable. Just to be sure I installed new rings. I took the head to a kawasaki dealer...they replaced all intake valves and valve seals. Idle problem still exsists. Compression is good.

Superfly · 05-17-2006

Well, it is only 3 things that make a engine run
fuel, spark, & compression, so with compression out of the way, you have good spark, it has got to be fuel.

Did you just clean the carbs, or did you rebuild them?
Do you have the needle in the right position, did you take out all the jets, and put them all back in the same place?
How is the carb Synch?

(I know it sounds like extremely basic questions, but they are easy to overlook!)

timgeorgi · 05-18-2006

That's whe way i look at it...2 down, only 1 left. The carbs have been soaked, brushed, air blown, and cleand by hand...The only thing i didn't do was to run a thin wire through the passageways. I have seen this suggested, but the repair manual i have says specifically not to do this, as it can damage the carbs. I'm thinking one of the passages may be blocked. I'm just not sure how to go forward diagnosing it. The carbs were completely taken apart. the float needle and seat were replaced. I synced the carbs with te proper scnch tool. At speeds above idle, the engine runs and sounds great. At idle, it misses and kinda chuggs, or knocks. It's hard to describe the sound, but it definitily doesn't sound right. I have the pilot mix screws set 2 turns out (I believe that is the stock spec.) Any ideas!?!?

SteveMcGreen · 05-18-2006

Choke cable hung up?

timgeorgi · 05-18-2006

Nope...all the cables move freely. I put some seafoam in the tank...maybe it will clear somethin out. I'm runnin out of ideas on this one

.

Superfly · 05-19-2006

Has to be the idle circuit in the carb. I would take the prblematic carb back apart, and clean it again. Some times, a 2nd dip is required, and I have used the wire trick in carbs that have sit for a while, and it works fine. That old gas hardens very hard, and takes some time to work it loose.

timgeorgi · 05-19-2006

What do you guys reccomend as the mix screw setting? My repair manual says 2 turns, but i have heard people reccomend 2 1/2 or 3 turns. What is the best way to tune this? The reason i asked is because i pulled the carbs apart earlier tonight...went through them all again. couldn't find any cloggs. I used a very fine wire and fished it through all the holes I could find. I turned the mix screws out to 2.5 turns (I had them at 2 turns before). The bike idles much better now, but it smells like it's running really rich, and still seems to be missing a little bit. I'm prety sure my problem is in the carbs somewhere, but i'm really unsure how to diagnose it further.

QKENUF4U · 05-19-2006

did you pull the PILOT JET OUT and make sure you can SEE thru it ? spray water on the #4 header pipe and see if it burns off the water like the other 3. (could be a VERY slight difference if one carb is only slightly clogged)

to check if you have it rich/lean enough you can just rev the bike, if it returns quickly/smoothly to idle then its prob. fine (you could lean it out a bit if ya want to mess more) but i would set it to the stock setting (2 turns) and leave it alone.

pull that pilot jet and make sure its clean.

timgeorgi · 05-20-2006

The Jets are clean...i'm positive of that. I'll try your water test though...sounds like a good idea. Thanks for the suggestion! When i rev the bike it does return smoothly to idle, but it seems to take a while. does that indicate rich or lean?

05-15-2006	#1 (permalink)
timgeorgi Newbie Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 12	86 Ninja 600R - a few problems I've been cleaning up an 86 ninja that i was given. bike isn't in too bad of a condtion. i have to problems i havn't been able to resolve. 1st, the bike doesn't idle right. I have tried multiple times to clean, adjust, sync...the carbs. i've messed with the mixture screws (stock settings, a little rich, a little lean). I've soaked them, blown air through them, used carb cleaner... Let's just say, if there still dirty, i have no idea how to clean them any better. Problem seems to be the #4 cylinder. It isn't producing as much power as the other three. I figured this out by pulling the vac lines off the carbs one at a time. with the first 3, the engine rpms and sound change dramatically when i pull the vac line off the carb. With the #4, there is little to no change. The engine has strong compression (New rings and a valve job). It's got to either be fuel or ignition related. There is a strong spark so i think it's got to be fuel. How can i further test the idle cirucit in this carb?? Second problem is the rear shock. it's dripping oil. I don't think there is anything to do but replace it. I've been watching ebay, but havn't found an exact match yet. After looking on kawasaki's web site, it seems they used different shocks for each year bike...almost. The first 5 digits of the part number are the same, but the last 4 are different. it looks like the only compatable one would be from an 85 model. Does anyone know if there are internal differences in the parts form say an 87 or 88 model compared to the 86. from the pics, they look exactily the same except for the adjustment lever, which i would think could be swapped out. Any help on either of these problems would be great! Thanks!

05-16-2006	#2 (permalink)
wiredgeorge Vintage Motor Mechanic! BTK Expert Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 507	I think that you just might be working on the bike's performance issues from the wrong end. FIRST, have you checked the bike's compression? If not, that is step 1! If you have compression issues, no amount of carb tuning will fix the problem. MOST compression problems a NEW owner has are that the valve clearances are NOT adjusted. If there is no valve clearance, the valve hang open a tad, lowering compression and as a result, the engine vacuum on the cylinder is down, hence the waste of time trying to tune the carbs. FIRST make sure your valve clearances are set and check compression as the compression problem MAY NOT be just valve clearance related but it make be worn pistons, cylinders or rings or the valves (or head components) may be shot. Come back with some compression readings and we can better progress from there. To test compression, by a compression gauge that press fits into your plug holes. It is best done when the engine is warm but it is critical to open your throttle all the way else you will have false readings. With plugs pulled, check each cyinder. I really don't know what your compression should be but would guess around 150 PSI in each cylinder. A shop manual will give you the spec plus there is a spec for the allowable difference between cylinders. If you find a cylinder out of spec, pour ONE teaspoon of oil down the plug hole and repeat the compression test. This "oil" test will indicate if you have ring sealing problems if the compression comes up quite a bit. This test points to worn pistons, cylinder, rings or a combination of all of them which is usually the case. Once you have established compression for the bike, you can move on in your troubleshooting but not before. __________________ wiredgeorge Texas Hill Country

05-18-2006	#5 (permalink)
timgeorgi Newbie Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 12	That's whe way i look at it...2 down, only 1 left. The carbs have been soaked, brushed, air blown, and cleand by hand...The only thing i didn't do was to run a thin wire through the passageways. I have seen this suggested, but the repair manual i have says specifically not to do this, as it can damage the carbs. I'm thinking one of the passages may be blocked. I'm just not sure how to go forward diagnosing it. The carbs were completely taken apart. the float needle and seat were replaced. I synced the carbs with te proper scnch tool. At speeds above idle, the engine runs and sounds great. At idle, it misses and kinda chuggs, or knocks. It's hard to describe the sound, but it definitily doesn't sound right. I have the pilot mix screws set 2 turns out (I believe that is the stock spec.) Any ideas!?!? Last edited by timgeorgi : 05-18-2006 at 12:02 AM.

05-19-2006	#9 (permalink)
timgeorgi Newbie Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 12	What do you guys reccomend as the mix screw setting? My repair manual says 2 turns, but i have heard people reccomend 2 1/2 or 3 turns. What is the best way to tune this? The reason i asked is because i pulled the carbs apart earlier tonight...went through them all again. couldn't find any cloggs. I used a very fine wire and fished it through all the holes I could find. I turned the mix screws out to 2.5 turns (I had them at 2 turns before). The bike idles much better now, but it smells like it's running really rich, and still seems to be missing a little bit. I'm prety sure my problem is in the carbs somewhere, but i'm really unsure how to diagnose it further. Last edited by timgeorgi : 05-19-2006 at 11:11 PM.

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05-17-2006	#3 (permalink)
timgeorgi Newbie Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 12	OK....just to detail what has been done already...compression was low, but not unacceptable. Just to be sure I installed new rings. I took the head to a kawasaki dealer...they replaced all intake valves and valve seals. Idle problem still exsists. Compression is good.

05-17-2006	#4 (permalink)
Superfly Rippin Ninja's heads off! BTK Expert Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 392	Well, it is only 3 things that make a engine run fuel, spark, & compression, so with compression out of the way, you have good spark, it has got to be fuel. Did you just clean the carbs, or did you rebuild them? Do you have the needle in the right position, did you take out all the jets, and put them all back in the same place? How is the carb Synch? (I know it sounds like extremely basic questions, but they are easy to overlook!)

05-18-2006	#6 (permalink)
SteveMcGreen Third Gear And Gaining BTK Intermediate Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 148	Choke cable hung up?

05-18-2006	#7 (permalink)
timgeorgi Newbie Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 12	Nope...all the cables move freely. I put some seafoam in the tank...maybe it will clear somethin out. I'm runnin out of ideas on this one .

05-19-2006	#8 (permalink)
Superfly Rippin Ninja's heads off! BTK Expert Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 392	Has to be the idle circuit in the carb. I would take the prblematic carb back apart, and clean it again. Some times, a 2nd dip is required, and I have used the wire trick in carbs that have sit for a while, and it works fine. That old gas hardens very hard, and takes some time to work it loose.

05-19-2006	#10 (permalink)
QKENUF4U AZ's Official Mechanic BTK Expert Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: lake havasu city arizona Posts: 4,551	did you pull the PILOT JET OUT and make sure you can SEE thru it ? spray water on the #4 header pipe and see if it burns off the water like the other 3. (could be a VERY slight difference if one carb is only slightly clogged) to check if you have it rich/lean enough you can just rev the bike, if it returns quickly/smoothly to idle then its prob. fine (you could lean it out a bit if ya want to mess more) but i would set it to the stock setting (2 turns) and leave it alone. pull that pilot jet and make sure its clean.

05-20-2006	#11 (permalink)
timgeorgi Newbie Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 12	The Jets are clean...i'm positive of that. I'll try your water test though...sounds like a good idea. Thanks for the suggestion! When i rev the bike it does return smoothly to idle, but it seems to take a while. does that indicate rich or lean?

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