Zzr600 is the best bike ever, when it goes [Archive] - Kawasaki Motorcycle Forums

Zzr600 is the best bike ever, when it goes

zzr600baldy
09-18-2012, 03:03 PM
Hi all, been reading all your stuff for ages and thought it was time to post:)
Got a 1992/3 zzr600d3 40k miles, pretty much standard, I think
Used to work good, great brakes, electrics etc.
Decided to clean the carbs and been havin bother since.
Carbs 1 and4 were almost totally blocked so cleaned everything, lines etc. I thought I was doing well as I have no experience with mechanics.
Put back together, revved good but at idle sounded like a bag of spanners.
Stripped again, carbs full of crap again!
Cleaned all, new in line filter, cleaned tank.
Checked valve clearances while everything was off anyway. Not quite spec in manual but not far away. Put back together now won't start. Backfiring. The adjust screws on the carbs were all different so I set them all to three turns out (a guess).
Sorry for the big long story but I know you guys want as much info as poss.
I don't know much about engines etc but I am willing to get stuck in. I cant afford to use a garage but I will buy tools parts etc that I need. Thanks for reading

Gary - K7GLD
09-18-2012, 03:14 PM
Unfortunately, trying to provide meaningful and helpful info on the finer intricate issues of fuel system/carb cleaning and synchronization is much like attempting long distance brain surgery... You need a well detailed service manual, and hopefully, someone here can provide a pointer to a thread called "carbs 101" or similar, that details a proper carb cleaning for bikes like yours.

Good luck

zzr600baldy
09-18-2012, 03:34 PM
Thanks for the reply
I Think I'm past the dirty carbs issue now and onto something else
I can't seem to find info on what the adjust screws should be set at. They were at different settings before and I set them at three turns out but that was a guess based on other posts but also totally different bikes.
I've had the battery tested n it's fine
The valves all read about the same (0.15) but the ex valves should be about 0.25 mm. I was warned off trying to adjust them but I don't mind doin it as long as I can get help from guys like yourself and the forum. I want to learn how the bike works and what I can do to make it work better.
The bikes 20 yrs old so and not worth that much if I make a total [email protected]&e of something it's not the end of the world
Thanks

MFolks
09-18-2012, 03:51 PM
Here's the popular, 2 part carb cleaning procedure:

Part 1

Carb Cleaning 101

By M. Shively

The elements of internal combustion engines are: correct fuel/air ratio, spark at right time, and adequate cylinder compression.

There are many passageways and openings to check and clean. All are important in function and when obstructed or not working properly, have subtle to radical effects on engine performance. Vacuum leaks and carburetor synchronization also effect performance and should be inspected and adjusted following the below procedures.

Warning: Remove all rubber parts before you begin. These parts usually include vacuum diaphragms, needle valves, o'rings, hoses, and other parts. Spray cleaners will damage these parts. Do not disassemble individual carbs from the carb bracket.

Air & Fuel Passageways: Trace and learn individual fuel and air circuits from beginning to end. Machines can only drill straight through the cast passageways. To change direction, another angled passageway must be drilled. The union is plugged with a brass or bronze bead. Inspect and clean each passageway with spray cleaner, brushes/pipe cleaners/etc, and compressed air. Remove any discoloration and debris. Look for spray cleaner to exit from one or more passageways.

Jet Cleaning: Inspect jets by holding to light and look through them. You should see an unobstructed round hole. Clean the jets with one or more of the following: jet cleaning wires, soak solutions, carb spray cleaners and compressed air. Re-inspect jets after cleaning and install when clear of obstructions. Some main jets have paper-like gaskets. Most have metal spacers between the jet and the emulsion tube. Some screw directly into a brass emulsion tube which is machined for a 7mm wrench at its float chamber exposed base.

Inlet Fuel Valve: Inspect the needle valve & spring. Press down the tiny metal rod that protrudes from the butt or float end of the needle valve. The spring should move freely and return the rod to its location. Check the needle valve's seat area for a groove or other wear. It should appear highly polished. Some needle valve seats are rubber and wear may not be visible. Inspect the needle valve jet seat. You can clean the jet seat with Q-tips and semi-chrome polish if necessary.

Carb Body Castings: Blow air through the atmospheric vent holes located on the dome of each float bowl chamber. Air should exit via hoses or brass nipples. Inspect the emulsion tubes and passageways (cast towers that jets thread into) for discoloration and debris. Clean interior emulsion towers with a soft bristle gun cleaning brush. Clean each Venturi (main carb bore).

Needle Jets & Jet Needles: Clean the needle jets, jet needles, and passageway or tower that needle jet screws into. Clean the emulsion tube (pipe between needle jet and main jet) (Main Jet may screw into emulsion tube). Jet needles are part of the throttle slides. See below

Throttle Slides: There are several types of throttle slides: Mechanical linkage, vacuum, diaphragm, and cable. Disassembling the jet needle from the slide is not always required for cleaning. If you have vacuum piston type throttle slides (large diameter solid metal slide), avoid cleaning the lubrication from sides and caps. If piston type check cap vents and passageways with air. Clean if necessary and re-lube. If you have rubber vacuum throttle diaphragms, inspect for dry-rot, defects, and tears by gently stretching rubber away from center. Do this until all areas around diaphragm have been inspected. Replace any defective part as described above. Clean carb body areas around diaphragm including air passageways and air jets. Diaphragms have a locator loop or tab fabricated into their sealing edge. Observe this locator upon reassembly. Avoid pinching the diaphragm when reinstalling caps.

Fuel Screws: Fuel screws have sharp tapered ends. Carefully turn one fuel screw in while counting the turns until it seats lightly. Warning: These screws are very easily damaged if over tightened into their seats. Record amount of "turns-in" and remove the fuel screw, spring, washer, and o'ring. The fuel screw is part of the enrichment (choke) circuit...clean passageways as described above. When carbs are assembled, spray low PSI compressed air into diaphragm air vents located at intake side of carbs. Throttle slides should rise, then fall when air is removed. Lightly lube external moving linkages. Reinstall carbs and follow through with carburetor synchronization.

Throttle Cables: Lubricate cables periodically. If cables are disconnected from carbs or removed for replacement, etc . . . remember cable routing and ensure proper reinstallation routing. Avoid bread-tying, sharp bends, and pinching cables. Adjust cables so throttle grip has about 5mm of play or throttle slides or butterfly valves may not open completely (full throttle)(wide full open).

Float Bowls: Inspect float bowls for sediment, gum or varnish, crystallization, and defects. Clean all pipes, tubes, passageways, and embedded jets with cleaners and compressed air. Remove and clean the drain screw and area. Inspect bowl gasket and replace if necessary. Clean and inspect overflow pipes and tubes, look for vertical cracks.

Floats: There are several types of float materials: plastic, brass, black composite, tin, and others. Handle floats carefully. Avoid bending, twisting, denting, or other means of mishandling. Most floats are adjustable by bending a small metal tab near the float axle end. Do not change the float adjuster tab unless tuning fuel service levels. Clean metal floats by soaking or by spraying cleaner and wiping clean. Other material type floats may require replacement if cleaning is necessary. Inspect the needle valve (float valve) and seat. Check needle valve's spring loaded pin. It should depress and return smoothly and without resistance. Check the needle valve's tip for a worn groove. Replace needle valve and seat if either symptom exists. These parts wear together and must be replaced as a set.

Synchronization: This is a fine adjustment performed usually and preferably with the carbs installed and the engine running. The unusual part is performed with gauged wire with the carbs on the work bench. Carburetor synchronizing balances Venturi vacuum at the exhaust side of each carburetor, resulting with smooth idling and optimized performance at all throttle openings. Synchronization is checked using a set of gauges which are either air vacuum type or liquid mercury type. The gauges are connected to vacuum ports on the intake manifolds via nipple tubes or if sealed with screws, sync gauge adapters will be needed. With the engine running at temperature, and with a fan or means of forced convection aimed onto the engine, the carbs fuel screws and idle are adjusted, then the synchronization is adjusted via adjustment screws on the carbs. A reserve fuel tank is recommended for convenience of accessing carbs during this procedure. See gauge instructions and repair manuals for detailed use of synchronization gauges.

Notes: While carbs are apart, record the jet sizes. Look for a very small number imprinted on the body of the jets. Verify that numbers are the same for all jets on models with in-line cylinders. A few transverse-4 models and V-engines, the inner and outer carbs use some different size jets and it's important to not mix them up. If you have dial or veneer calipers, measure and record float heights. Perform measurements with floats just touching needle valves, though not depressing the needle valve rods. Replace fuel and vacuum hoses. Be sure to use fuel rated hose for fuel. Install or replace in-line fuel filters. It's a good time to remove and clean interior petcock fuel filters. Inspect carb manifolds for dry-rotting, inspect all clamps and air ducts. Inspect, clean, lube, and/or replace air filter(s).

MFolks
09-18-2012, 03:58 PM
Part 2:

Carb Cleaning 102


Written by MShively

Most carburetor problems seem to come after the motorcycle was stored or not started for a while. If it won't start or only runs with the choke lever pulled out, you have one or more jets obstructed by gummed or varnished fuel. Notice the enrichening lever...most of the motorcycle carbs have enrichening passages inside the carburetor that WHEN THE THROTTLE IS CLOSED, provide the rich air/fuel mixture to start the engine. If you open the throttle any at all it cuts this enrichening out of the system. So if you are having trouble starting and everything looks ok, see if closing the throttle helps. This does not apply to carbs with a butterfly choke.

To access the jets you will have to take the carbs off the engine. A service manual will be very helpful here for specifications, images of the carburetor, and procedures. Take a float bowl off and remove the jets. Sometimes removing the jets can be difficult because the fuel has gummed or varnished over the parts. If so, clear as much of the gum out as possible. Use carb cleaner and compressed air to aid removal. Before soaking carbs in a dip tank or powerful cleaner, look for rubber seals, O'rings, and other parts that may be damaged by the cleaners. Remove any rubber parts prior to cleaning. Look closely, sometimes these parts are hard to see. If they are there and you can't get them, you will have to clean the carb body carefully by hand and not soak it.

Before you remove the fuel/air screw, gently turn it in until it seats. Count and record the number of "turns in." After cleaning and when you replace it, set it at this setting. Most carbs have a rubber o-ring and steel washer under the fuel/air screw spring. Look for them and remove them with a piece of wire or suitable fabricated tool BEFORE you spray carb cleaner in there. The fuel/air screw may be covered by a tamper cap or plug. You will have to remove this plug to access it. Upon reassembly and after cleaning, a base setting for the fuel/air screws of 1.25 turns out is good to start if you don't have the factory specs or forgot to record the turns out earlier. When the engine is warm, turn the screw in until the engine stumbles, then out until it stumbles, and leave it at half way in between. Adjust the idle with the throttle stop screw as needed.

You will need to remove the main jet and the needle jet. The main jet is usually larger and screwed onto the lower end of the needle jet, locking it into the emulsion tower and carb body. Remove the main jet and tap out the needle jet. Do this very carefully. It is soft brass and may break or damage very easily. Sometimes the needle jet will have an O-ring. Remove the O-ring and soak both main jet and needle jet in carb cleaner. Upon reassembly, there may be a locator pin in the emulsion tower/carb body that fits in a grove on the needle jet. Make sure they align properly.

You will need to remove the pilot jet. Pilot jets may be located similar as the main jet, covered by a rubber plug, deep inside an emulsion tower, or other. Be careful not to strip or break the small pilot jet when you try to remove it. It may be necessary to grind the end of a small screwdriver to fit the jet just right. Even after soaking, the jet may still be plugged. Use a small "E" guitar string and push it through the jet. (A wire strand out of a wire brush may work. The wire brush should measure about .013" in diameter.) The smallest jet drill you can get is #80, which has a diameter of .0135". You can use the wire and not enlarge the hole, at least not by much. Yes, some manuals say not to insert any wire jet cleaning tools into the jets. However, Honda and other manufacturers produce them as special tools for the dealer technicians.

Use compressed air with spray cleaner and the wire to clean jets. Spray carb cleaner into the carb passages, and then follow with compressed air. Watch for cleaner to exit from other passage ways and openings, and ensure that those small idle passages are clear. The smallest tubes, passageways, and openings are critical to the operation of the carburetor. EVERY PINHOLE IS IMPORTANT. Make certain that your see and hear air and cleaner pass freely through every opening. Wear goggles and don't get so close that you get carb spray in your eyes.

Sometimes the pins or rods that hold the floats can be gummed. Spray a bit of carb cleaner and let it set awhile. Repeat and try to gently move the float. Eventually, the pin will loosen enough so that you can drive out the pin with a very small punch. If necessary, tap on the punch very gently with the handle of a small screwdriver or similar tool. Penetrating oil also works good to free up gummed float pins and stuck throttle slides. If the slides have a rubber diaphragm on them, spray carb cleaner on a rag and wipe the slide clean. Do not get carb cleaner on the rubber diaphragms. It will ruin them. While you have the Diaphragm out, inspect it for holes. If you have an engine that has good compression and starts well, but just has no power and revs up ever so slowly, check that rubber diaphragm. It may have a hole or tear. The throttle slide will not rise if it is damaged.

When you put the float valve or needle valve back in place, put a drop of light oil on it so it will move freely in its seat and not stick before the gas first starts to fill the bowl.

Don't clean the outside of constant velocity (CV) carbs with spray carb cleaner unless you are sure they are not the rubber diaphragm type. Carb cleaner will ruin the rubber. There is a piston type of CV carburetor, but it's still not a good idea to use the spray because of rubber float bowl gaskets (O'rings).

If you turn on the fuel petcock and gas pours out the overflow tubes, tap lightly on the carb body with a suitable tool. That will vibrate the float valves loose. Same thing if there is dirt holding the valves open. If it doesn't work you need a new float valve & seat. The tips of the float valves can be steel or rubber. Tips with a groove worn in them should be replaced. The float pin springs often become gummed by fuel and cause the pins to stick. Test with your finger. They should be free moving - no resistance. Replace all if you feel any sticking. If they first stuck, but you worked them free, try and use them. They may fail when gasoline gets into the spring again.

Floats control the fuel level in the float bowls. Adjustable tangs on the floats rest on the float valve pins. When level is low, the float lowers and the valve follows. More fuel enters the bowl. Similarly, shutting fuel flow off when it replenishes supply. If the tang is metal, you can adjust the float level by bending the tang up or down. If it is plastic, it is non-adjustable. Float levels are different for each bike and are found in the bikes shop manual. If you don't have the float setting and can't find it anywhere, set it so the fuel level is a bit below the top of the float bowl. Make sure no gas comes out of the float overflow tubes or hoses. The float overflow tube is at the bottom or side of each float bowl. There are many styles of floats: copper, brass, bronze, plastic, urethane, tin, cork, and maybe other materials. Brass and plastic are the most common.

If the rubber ducts that connect the carb and air cleaner housing are hard and dry-rotted, you should replace them. Replace rubber intake manifolds if necessary, too(sometimes called carb holders, they are between the engine and carbs).

On the side of some carbs is another diaphragm that temporarily closes the pilot or slow speed jet air passage when the throttle is closed. This richens the fuel mixture to reduce backfiring when coming to a stop. Check the diaphragm for holes and tears.

At the bottom of some carbs is an accelerator pump to pump extra fuel when the throttle is opened. The pump is attached or connected to one float bowl. Check the pump's diaphragm for holes or tears. A rubber coating called "Plasti-Dip" has been used to fix diaphragms. I have never used it but I hear it works. Get it from NAPA part #765-2527.

Adjustments that you can make from outside the carburetor:
1) Synchronizer screws balance the carburetors for smooth performance and idling. 2) Idle screw (throttle stop screw) adjusts the speed of the idle. 3) The idle fuel/air screw adjusts the idle mixture. This is only at idle and does not effect anything above idle. Another method to adjust it: turn the fuel/air screw in and out until you get the highest idle speed. Then lower the idle speed with the idle screw and do it again until you get the best idle. The air screw can be located in a variety of places on the carb. If you have a 1980 or newer machine, it may have a cover over it to keep you from messing with it. You will have to drill it and then pry it out using the hole you made. It may be illegal for you to do this, depending on where you live.

If you can't get it to idle, or rather the idle stays real high then drops off and dies, check for an air leak. Spray starting fluid, brake cleaner, carb cleaner, etc... on the manifold, carbs, air box, vacuum hoses, and petcock to see if the revs change. If they do, you have a leak. If your valve clearances are too tight, it will also effect the idle. Here's a video using an UNLIT propane torch to find vacuum leaks:Vacuum Leaks - How to Find - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YH6306zM-Ug&feature=relmfu)

You can make your air/fuel mixture a bit richer or leaner by moving the carburetor needle clip up or down. Move the clip down a notch to raise the needle, to richen the mixture. Move the clip up to lower the needle, to lean out the mixture. The needle is located in the throttle slide.

The Suzuki motorcycles use similar carbs,here's more information about carb cleaning:
The GSResources - Carb Rebuild Pg. 1 of 9 (http://www.thegsresources.com/gs_carbrebuild.htm)

zzr600baldy
09-18-2012, 04:06 PM
wow thats some list
i think i will start over and try to pay more attention to each stage
i hope im missing something simple!!!!!!!!!!
i dont mind spending time on it cos the weather in scotland is crap anyway just now.
meant to say the bike hardly ever gets redlined but does get used rgularly.
i really like this bike and want to get it back on the road.
also about the valves, worth adjusting?
thanks for your replies, im very grateful, cheers guys

MFolks
09-18-2012, 04:16 PM
Always check the valve clearances before attempting to adjust the carbs, otherwise, you'll be in the endless circle of cleaning,jet swaping, and needle valve clip moving. Check the compression, and do a leak down test once in a while. Both tests will check the health of the valves, engine,piston, and piston rings.

zzr600baldy
01-02-2013, 02:02 PM
Hi
Thanks for the help
Finally sussed it's the cdi unit that's gubbed
Trying to source a new one

STREETSLAYER
01-03-2013, 09:11 AM
how do you know its the "cdi"?

zzr600baldy
01-04-2013, 11:54 AM
hi
tested the resistance with a multi meter, most figures are either zero or infinite. couple of spot on results as per mr haynes, got a mate to test it using a different multi meter, same results.
when trying to start bike there is nothing (apart from starter).
when i heat up the cdi (on radiator) then put back on bike while its hot, it is on the brink of starting
i have tested all else as best i can, got fuel, spark plugs coils etc are good
thanks

zzr600baldy
02-17-2013, 10:38 AM
Right, finally got time to fit new plugs, leads, cdi.
Still wont start normally, but if i spray carb cleaner over the air intakes it will start n run for about 5 secs.
So, does this mean air/fuel screws need adjusted or something else wrong?
Ta

strongchain
02-18-2013, 04:57 PM
At this point I would say it's best to restore the carbs to stock or as close to stock as possible. It can be easy to start jumping around and looking for problems where none exist. Most manuals always mention the carb troublshooting as a last effort. Your air adjustment screws may need to backed off a bit. Also check your throttle cable because it gets fudged around sometimes.

zzr600baldy
02-23-2013, 12:53 PM
Woohoo, started& runnin
Went back to the carbs, 1 float needed adjusted, it was out by quite a lot, put the air screws at 1.5 turns out.
1 scoosh of carb cleaner to give it a boost and it started.
So excited i forgot there was no coolant in it!
Still needs work, running rough, lumpy, bad throttle control, revs up n takes a while to settle down, engine sounds louder than before but not in a good way.
Any ideas, keep them comin!
Thanks for tips up to now.

johnnymurr
08-10-2013, 04:24 PM
hi there im in kirkintilloch just outside glasgow and im having the same problems as you my bike is a zzr 400 which is same as the 600d do you know any companys that set and tune carbs in glasgow area as i need to get mine going good it was sitting for about 4 years and i managed to get it going i now have 3 sets of carbs all same need set any advise would help cheers john

zzr600baldy
08-12-2013, 02:36 PM
Hi, i tried a couple of places in glasgow, but because of the age of the bike (i think) they didnt want to do it, maybe due to giving gaurantees etc. i just kept on it myself n now it seems to be runnin pretty good , but could probs do with someone setting the carbs up properly, to be honest i dont want to spend any more money on it.
On mine the screws are set at about 3.25 turns out and it seems to be ok.

ShinobiU
08-13-2013, 06:23 AM
You should try to do a vacuum sync, that can make a big difference. And it doesn't have to be expensive, all you need is two glass bottles of the same size, few feet of rubbe hose and a little water. You take the caps from the bottles and make 2 holes on each, just big enough to fit the hose thru snug. The hose itsef needs to be cut in 3 pieces, two of them will be used to connect to vacuum nipple on the intake, and one is used to connect the bottles together. Important thing is that the hose connecting the bottles is long enough to reach the bottom of each bottle, and the vacuum hoses cannot, and this is important, cannot reach the liquid inside of the bottles itself, so it is best to cut them maybe 1cm from the caps. Put the water in and you are good to go. When synching you first sync carb #3 and #4 together, because #3 is, at most of the time; the "main" carb. You do that with screw between them. Then you do the same with #1 and #2. And finally, you connect the setup on #2 and #3 and sync with the screw between them, that one moves 1 and 2 together and setting them to match 3, and 4 is already matched to 3, so there you have, a perfectly balanced carbs. The liquid will move from one bottle to another while synching, your goal is not to get the fluid level in them even but rather to stop the fluid moving. Logic behind it is that, when you have stronger vacuum in one carb, it will pull the liquid from the bottle connected to it form the bottle conected to the lower vacuum. So if the fliud is not moving the vacuum is the same. I synched my buddy's XJ650 that way and it runs like a dream. It is possible to make the setup with 4 bottles, but this is much simpler and it works just fine.