Benchmaster
1 - 20 of 23 Posts
Joined
·
5,457 Posts
What a nice little mill. I would love it, but getting it to Canada could be costly. But out of curiosity and for the benefit of others what are the specs, ie
1)HP
2) single phase motor?
3) what kind of spindle for toolholding
4) XYZ travel
5) overall weight
1)HP
2) single phase motor?
3) what kind of spindle for toolholding
4) XYZ travel
5) overall weight
Joined
·
6,727 Posts
Oh, this little mill isn't going anywhere. I waited years for this.
So without pulling up the attached pdf's
1-2HP
Single
2MT both. I have all the horizontal attachment.
12 1/2" x 5 1/2" x 8 1/2"
About 265 in vertical only.
I have canned media and txt from the non-rebuild. I was just curious if anyone cared
I was about to ask about price and location.
Joined
·
1,667 Posts
When you get ready to set it up, ditch the wooden table, it will be a source of vibration. The stand looks prettty good, but if you bolt it down to the concrete, you cuts will be much better. I've been a machinist most of my life. These machines not bolted down make it hard to get a good finish. A knee that raises and lowers in a machine that size is a Godsend, and shows that it's is the real deal. That is a really well made machine, do it right, you'll be passing it down to your heirs. 
Joined
·
6,727 Posts
if you knew how it attached...
Not only is it not going anywhere but the wood is there to deaden the vibrations.
This isn't my first ice cream social by a long shot.
These bench top mills are prone to high frequency oscillations rather than the long wave chatter we're used to from sole plate and shim in concrete 3,500 pound machines.
I'm working on a CNC conversion for prototyping. The dovetail ways wouldn't survive production life.
I still build purpose built linear slide and ball screw purpose built machines.
I just have a thing for machines as old as I am.
Not only is it not going anywhere but the wood is there to deaden the vibrations.
This isn't my first ice cream social by a long shot.
These bench top mills are prone to high frequency oscillations rather than the long wave chatter we're used to from sole plate and shim in concrete 3,500 pound machines.
I'm working on a CNC conversion for prototyping. The dovetail ways wouldn't survive production life.
I still build purpose built linear slide and ball screw purpose built machines.
I just have a thing for machines as old as I am.
Joined
·
1,667 Posts
We can agree to disagree. Wood as a support prevents the vibrations, whatever their wave length, from going into the floor, away from the machine, where they belong.
Worked as a CNC programmer operator, fixture design and machine set up. There are no machines mounted to wood. That's the way it's done in the top machine shops in the world, and those are the ones I worked in................... Nice machine though.
Worked as a CNC programmer operator, fixture design and machine set up. There are no machines mounted to wood. That's the way it's done in the top machine shops in the world, and those are the ones I worked in................... Nice machine though.
Joined
·
5,457 Posts
I see nothing wrong with using a wooden sandwich between the mill and its stand. I think it could assist in dampening vibrations. Some lathes are setup with adjustable pads that contain a rubber mount. Typically I think these are used when bolting and grouting to the floor is not practical.
But given that this is a very small mill, I would leave it as-is but would consider bolting the machine to the stand through the plywood, and then bolt the stand to the concrete floor with concrete anchors. If vibration becomes a problem it would be a simple matter to remove the plywood as a test to see if things improve.
But given that this is a very small mill, I would leave it as-is but would consider bolting the machine to the stand through the plywood, and then bolt the stand to the concrete floor with concrete anchors. If vibration becomes a problem it would be a simple matter to remove the plywood as a test to see if things improve.
Joined
·
1,667 Posts
They physics just don't support it. You want any vibration go go through the machine, which is bolted to a solid steel stand, which is bolted to a concrete floor. The wood itself acts as a collector for vibration, you will be taking extra skim cuts to get the same finished you could have achieved one cut with a proper set up. Sikorsky and Perkin -Elmer corporations had rebar frames built up into 6 foot square holes, then filled with concrete with very long bolts mounted into the concrete to bolt the machines down. Do whatever you wish wish your machine, it's a beauty. The machine won't reach it's full potential, and actually will wear more not being able to pass the vibrations down to the floor bolts. You get to mill parts though, and that allows you to do so much more.
Joined
·
5,457 Posts
I don't disagree with your theory especially as it applies to heavy duty machine tools.
However I am a big fan of the empirical method and of the mantra "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". Therefore I stand firm in testing the mill as-is, or with the small improvements in bolting that I suggested and if Kop is happy with the results then leave it be. However if he has vibration and surface finish issues, then he could do exactly what you suggest and test again (the empirical method). Hopefully Kop will keep us posted as he gets it up and running.
I do know that a large industrial lathe taking a heavy, interrupted-cut, will dance across the shop floor if not bolted down. Ask me how I know this.
Factoid of the Day:
Pure physics is not always right. Aeronautical engineers who applied the laws of physics to a bumble bee have determined that theoretically a bumble bee cannot fly and yet we all know that it can fly. It was not until the new millennium that they were finally able to figure out how it was possible for a bee to fly.
However I am a big fan of the empirical method and of the mantra "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". Therefore I stand firm in testing the mill as-is, or with the small improvements in bolting that I suggested and if Kop is happy with the results then leave it be. However if he has vibration and surface finish issues, then he could do exactly what you suggest and test again (the empirical method). Hopefully Kop will keep us posted as he gets it up and running.
I do know that a large industrial lathe taking a heavy, interrupted-cut, will dance across the shop floor if not bolted down. Ask me how I know this.
Factoid of the Day:
Pure physics is not always right. Aeronautical engineers who applied the laws of physics to a bumble bee have determined that theoretically a bumble bee cannot fly and yet we all know that it can fly. It was not until the new millennium that they were finally able to figure out how it was possible for a bee to fly.
Joined
·
561 Posts
I, on the other hand, completely disagree. Any machine tool, be that industrial or hobby, should operate within its capabilities without the need to be bolted down. Any forced generated should be controlled and damped within the body of the machine tool.
Bolting a machine to the floor is a safety measure in order to prevent the machine from moving in the event of either it being operated beyond its capabilities or some catastrophic failure.
Allowing vibrationary forces to pass through the machine and into the floor will ultimately undermine the floor structure and lead to further damage.
Out of balance forces need to be controlled and damped as close to the source as practicable.
Bolting a machine to the floor is a safety measure in order to prevent the machine from moving in the event of either it being operated beyond its capabilities or some catastrophic failure.
Allowing vibrationary forces to pass through the machine and into the floor will ultimately undermine the floor structure and lead to further damage.
Out of balance forces need to be controlled and damped as close to the source as practicable.
Joined
·
5,457 Posts
Interesting debate and I think you make an excellent point David.
While I agree that machine tools are designed to absorb or dampen vibration on their own, it is my experience that they will do so if correctly designed, but not up to their maximum capabilities. When operated under heavy cuts it is important to bolt the machine down, not only to prevent it from dancing across the floor, but it will also help with vibration if the machine tool base is grouted and bolted down.
If the floor was designed for industrial use, ie minimum of 6-8" thick and laced with rebar there will be no damage to the floor. I have seen machine shops on the 2nd floor of a building with a concrete floor last for 30 years without any damage.
In terms of correct design of the machine tool, Mazak and many other CNC machine tool manufacturers, used a cast iron hollow box structure and then filled the hollow with sand. Sand is great for dampening vibration. Nowadays I think they have moved to using polymer concrete.
Having said all that, I have seen many machine shops where they don't bolt or grout their machines and they seem to do just fine. But in a heavy cuts especially in interrupted cuts, I think bolting and grouting will help with vibration control.
While I agree that machine tools are designed to absorb or dampen vibration on their own, it is my experience that they will do so if correctly designed, but not up to their maximum capabilities. When operated under heavy cuts it is important to bolt the machine down, not only to prevent it from dancing across the floor, but it will also help with vibration if the machine tool base is grouted and bolted down.
If the floor was designed for industrial use, ie minimum of 6-8" thick and laced with rebar there will be no damage to the floor. I have seen machine shops on the 2nd floor of a building with a concrete floor last for 30 years without any damage.
In terms of correct design of the machine tool, Mazak and many other CNC machine tool manufacturers, used a cast iron hollow box structure and then filled the hollow with sand. Sand is great for dampening vibration. Nowadays I think they have moved to using polymer concrete.
Having said all that, I have seen many machine shops where they don't bolt or grout their machines and they seem to do just fine. But in a heavy cuts especially in interrupted cuts, I think bolting and grouting will help with vibration control.
Joined
·
561 Posts
Everything done to ensure the machine tool doesn’t go walk about, is both for safety reasons and to mask inherent flaws in the design. If a heavy cut causes problems then the machine is working beyond its true capabilities. The transfer of forces outside the machine is a flaw and not a design parameter. Reinforcing the floor is merely kicking the can further down the road.
Granted, floors can be designed and built such that their performance is far greater than the forces exerted on it by the machine tool.
Getting back to the OP’s milling machine, with the tool bolted to the wooden table top, I think it should be fine and probably not need to be bolted to the floor.
Granted, floors can be designed and built such that their performance is far greater than the forces exerted on it by the machine tool.
Getting back to the OP’s milling machine, with the tool bolted to the wooden table top, I think it should be fine and probably not need to be bolted to the floor.
Joined
·
1,667 Posts
Guys, come on here. No machine needs to be bolted? Have you ever read the rigging instructions for these machines. You can't get Micro finishes with a free standing machine, the vibrations of the machine itself will prevent that. I can't imagine using a fly cutter on a machine not bolted down. Have fun with your machines bouncing around all over the place.
The analogy of the Bumble Bee was really not relative. Physics just hadn't figured it out yet, and in actuality, it was aerodynamic research hadn't figured it up. Let's not turn out back on physics now.
I've trained 100's of people to start their machine careers, there were certain things that were a given. Why just not relay on the weight of your vice to hold the part down? That's how ridiculous to me this sounds. Intellectualizing never trumps experience. "If a heavy cut causes problems then the machine is working beyond its true capabilities..... Granted, floors can be designed and built such that their performance is far greater than the forces exerted on it by the machine tool".
That's just plain wrong. I used to build lasers used to calibrate production lines for assembly lines. The passing tractor trailer trucks meant that finally, the owner had to move the plant. The machines were operating perfectly, but a suitable base could not be established in that area. I don't think that some people posting in this thread have ever operated the kind of machinery we are talking about. This kind of intellectualizing is a problem that is increasing as of late.
Have fun. I'm out.
The analogy of the Bumble Bee was really not relative. Physics just hadn't figured it out yet, and in actuality, it was aerodynamic research hadn't figured it up. Let's not turn out back on physics now.
I've trained 100's of people to start their machine careers, there were certain things that were a given. Why just not relay on the weight of your vice to hold the part down? That's how ridiculous to me this sounds. Intellectualizing never trumps experience. "If a heavy cut causes problems then the machine is working beyond its true capabilities..... Granted, floors can be designed and built such that their performance is far greater than the forces exerted on it by the machine tool".
That's just plain wrong. I used to build lasers used to calibrate production lines for assembly lines. The passing tractor trailer trucks meant that finally, the owner had to move the plant. The machines were operating perfectly, but a suitable base could not be established in that area. I don't think that some people posting in this thread have ever operated the kind of machinery we are talking about. This kind of intellectualizing is a problem that is increasing as of late.
Have fun. I'm out.
Joined
·
5,457 Posts
I don't think anyone said that no machines need to be bolted down.
I have worked on numerous bolted and numerous unbolted machines. Never had any trouble with surface finish in normal use. Different story if trying to use 75% or more of the available HP.
"I don't think that some people posting in this thread have ever operated the kind of machinery we are talking about."
Problem being we have gone from talking about Kop's baby mill that weighs only 265 pounds to CNC machines that weigh thousands of pounds, have high speed spindles and super high table travel speeds. We are attempting to compare apples with oranges.
I think Kop will be just fine and if not, the solution is simple.
Remember, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
I have worked on numerous bolted and numerous unbolted machines. Never had any trouble with surface finish in normal use. Different story if trying to use 75% or more of the available HP.
"I don't think that some people posting in this thread have ever operated the kind of machinery we are talking about."
Problem being we have gone from talking about Kop's baby mill that weighs only 265 pounds to CNC machines that weigh thousands of pounds, have high speed spindles and super high table travel speeds. We are attempting to compare apples with oranges.
I think Kop will be just fine and if not, the solution is simple.
Remember, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Joined
·
1,667 Posts
I have many tears of time setting up these machines, some with 8 cutting wheels. I used to make the hinges that the blades and tail setion of certain Sikorsky Helicopters folded used for storage below decks on aircraft carriers and amphibious assault ships. This type of milling is really awesome, but the cutting wheels cost a fortune for anything complicated.
Joined
·
5,457 Posts
Gang milling? I have not done too much of that. Yes the cutters if bought new are expensive.
I have found some 2nd hand stores that specialize in odd things like used cutting tools that you pay for by the pound.
They probably get them from bankruptcy auctions or whatever, but the price per pound was very affordable. Some of the stuff would need sharpening and others were fine as-is. That's were I would go if I need milling cutters.
I have found some 2nd hand stores that specialize in odd things like used cutting tools that you pay for by the pound.
They probably get them from bankruptcy auctions or whatever, but the price per pound was very affordable. Some of the stuff would need sharpening and others were fine as-is. That's were I would go if I need milling cutters.
1 - 20 of 23 Posts
