when you have to make an emergency stop, and so you lock both front and rear brakes, at leat on my bike, the rear starts to slide around to the right, kinda like drifting in a car. what's the best way to make an emergency stop; riding the drifting tail of the bike, not locking the brakes at all (i know this is ideal, but not always possible :lol: ) or what? if you lock the brakes and let the bike's tail slide to the right, and don't let off the brakes, what will happen? will the turn 90 degrees and keep going in the direction you were going, or will it buck you off the seat? i've never rode a "lock" all the way to the end. and what's the best way to stop like that?
ever slammed the brakes?
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I know exactly what you are talking about. I've had to do this on several occasions and it seems to me the faster you are going the less likely it will slide to the side, but as you actually come to the stop it does slide a bit. But that is just my experience over 2 seasons. The other thing is never, ever, under any circumstances lock up the front brake. You could end up doing a "high-side" and that my friend can make you deader than a doornail. If you have to go down try to go down "low-side". Your more likely to live that way.
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57 Posts
You should take an MSF safety course, as safely performing an emergency stop greatly increases your chances of suriviving on a bike.
Anyway, like mentioned above, locking the rear brake is workable, although not really preferable. Locking the front brake usually means serious problems even at speeds as little as 40 mpg(heard of a guy that cracked his collar bone, etc).
Anyway, like mentioned above, locking the rear brake is workable, although not really preferable. Locking the front brake usually means serious problems even at speeds as little as 40 mpg(heard of a guy that cracked his collar bone, etc).
SAFETY and Racing COURSE
YOu will find that even in racing you use the front brake a lot more than you will use the rear. Setting up for corners you set the chassis for a corner by braking...I very seldom ever use the rear brake unless I'm hydro-planing or when I hit a small patch of black ice. I guess that I use it when I'm setting at a traffic light as well. After nearly 20 years of riding/30licensed, riding on/of road and even on a couple of tracks, I use the front brakes real hard! IF you get into a situation where you are riding beyond your limits then you are not paying attention to what you are doing. I've all but locked up the front and had the bike shuddering as the front end dove out of sight trying to avoid a turning car, and then turned the bike as hard as I could to the right to go in the same direction as the car was going in to avoid any furthere damage. When I was uprighting I was so close to the ca that my knee was actually touching the car and the driver pulled to the center of the lane and then slammed on his brakes...HE had NEVER seen me! I was riding an old Honda 450 DOHC heavy tank..headlight on, safety vest on, and everything! Sliding your rear end is NOT the answer...it WILL eventually either slide under you or highside and throw you off over the top...either way is no fun. Riding the MSF course is cool, because in there if you have that Question they will show you ,IF there is time, or tell you that you are just going to fast for the conditions...(MOST LIKELY THE LAter)
YOu will find that even in racing you use the front brake a lot more than you will use the rear. Setting up for corners you set the chassis for a corner by braking...I very seldom ever use the rear brake unless I'm hydro-planing or when I hit a small patch of black ice. I guess that I use it when I'm setting at a traffic light as well. After nearly 20 years of riding/30licensed, riding on/of road and even on a couple of tracks, I use the front brakes real hard! IF you get into a situation where you are riding beyond your limits then you are not paying attention to what you are doing. I've all but locked up the front and had the bike shuddering as the front end dove out of sight trying to avoid a turning car, and then turned the bike as hard as I could to the right to go in the same direction as the car was going in to avoid any furthere damage. When I was uprighting I was so close to the ca that my knee was actually touching the car and the driver pulled to the center of the lane and then slammed on his brakes...HE had NEVER seen me! I was riding an old Honda 450 DOHC heavy tank..headlight on, safety vest on, and everything! Sliding your rear end is NOT the answer...it WILL eventually either slide under you or highside and throw you off over the top...either way is no fun. Riding the MSF course is cool, because in there if you have that Question they will show you ,IF there is time, or tell you that you are just going to fast for the conditions...(MOST LIKELY THE LAter)
I don't know guys... I distinctly remember in my MSF course the instructor telling us not to lock up the front brake under any circumstances. They told us 70% of stopping power comes from the front and 30% from the back. They said that if you lock up the front you will have no control over the bike because the back tire will want to position itself in front causing the rear to fish-tail until your sideways and doing "high-side" or "low-side". I will call them and ask them because this all sound very wrong to me and I don't want to kill myself. I'll let you all know what they say. Hopefully later today, but if not today, soon. I don't want to say anyone is wrong. Everyone ride differently, I just want to make sure no one gets hurt because of incorrect info. Until then... please no one lock up your brakes on purpose just to find out what will happen. :wink:
well, technically, you don't want to lock either wheel up, as youstop a lot faster when you hold the brakes right at the point where they are about to lock up (thresh-hold braking). that is the point where you have the most stopping power, as the tire still has traction on the road. but the rear tire often locks easier than the front, since it has the least amount of weight on it.
i try not to lock either wheel. if i feel one lock, then i let off the brake just enough for it to get traction again.
i try not to lock either wheel. if i feel one lock, then i let off the brake just enough for it to get traction again.
Well to follow-up, I spoke with the peps and they said, if you should lock up the front brake you need to let off of it slowly while still holding brake to the rear, but you should never lock up the front brake and not have any brake on the rear or lock up the front and then let up on the rear brake while the front is still locked. Otherwise the rear tire will want to overtake the front tire causing a spill. Remembering that your tires only have good traction when they have traction and are not skidding. When you are skidding there is no traction what-so-ever.
As stated you should avoid locking either front or rear.
Front lock up can be recovered more easily byt simply letting off the brake. Rear lock up can be touchier, if you release the rear it could snap to the opposite side and cause a highside, it is recommended that you not release the rear brake unless the rear wheel is perfectly lined up with the front before hand.Otherwise just ride it out.
Front lock up can be recovered more easily byt simply letting off the brake. Rear lock up can be touchier, if you release the rear it could snap to the opposite side and cause a highside, it is recommended that you not release the rear brake unless the rear wheel is perfectly lined up with the front before hand.Otherwise just ride it out.
Heh, I learned how to lock up the brakes today...
I was a little careless in my lane position and my stopping distance. The tires skid very well across oil laden pavement. But I found a two wheel skid to be pretty easy to control. Just didn't look so pretty sliding forward about 8 feet into the intersection.
Hehe, next time I'll make sure I just run thru the yellow instead of practicing an emergency stop in that intersection...
I was a little careless in my lane position and my stopping distance. The tires skid very well across oil laden pavement. But I found a two wheel skid to be pretty easy to control. Just didn't look so pretty sliding forward about 8 feet into the intersection.
Hehe, next time I'll make sure I just run thru the yellow instead of practicing an emergency stop in that intersection...
MISREAD???
ALL but lock-up...on the front...Like Uncle Bob said..for the rear...it can cause a lot of problems for you...I would hope everyone would enjoy the MSF basic course and then WANT to take the Advanced course on their own...not just for some license or insurance reason...the more you learn the smarter you should be...better to see it on the board and on hte track before trying something for the first time in an emergency situation. Serious FUN and LIFE SAVING tools for justa small price of money...that you would just blow on dinner anyway!!! Better to lose a dinner than your LUNCH anytime!
ALL but lock-up...on the front...Like Uncle Bob said..for the rear...it can cause a lot of problems for you...I would hope everyone would enjoy the MSF basic course and then WANT to take the Advanced course on their own...not just for some license or insurance reason...the more you learn the smarter you should be...better to see it on the board and on hte track before trying something for the first time in an emergency situation. Serious FUN and LIFE SAVING tools for justa small price of money...that you would just blow on dinner anyway!!! Better to lose a dinner than your LUNCH anytime!
You are picking on me, because...
Aikata, you must have read, or remembered that we don't have Del Taco here...I KNOW you didn't say it...but I could just see it in between the lines! My wife, couldn't wait to eat at Del Taco when we were in range...of course we dont have the Weinerschnitzel (?) out here either...
Sliders...as in Back Yard Burgers (Burger Place in town) not the chips in the field... Sliders, that is what we used to call the guys riding Harley bikes all the time...they get to a stop light in Hawaii on the old highway, under the new highway (long story...two different highways) and the cooler asphault...that was always protected from the rain and sun...was slick! It was fun to just set on a bench and watch them put the rear brake on and it would skid and smoke and just keep going...like the Energizer bunny...It was cool though if you rode it every day. You could do a burn out fishtail and just keep rolling on the throttle, and the smoke would keep on rolling...even the busses would smoke their tires when skidding to a stop...I kinda' really don't miss it...come to think of it, now. It made stopping wicked awful...and starting out slick and awesome too...all in all...I'm happy to be stateside...
Aikata, you must have read, or remembered that we don't have Del Taco here...I KNOW you didn't say it...but I could just see it in between the lines! My wife, couldn't wait to eat at Del Taco when we were in range...of course we dont have the Weinerschnitzel (?) out here either...
Sliders...as in Back Yard Burgers (Burger Place in town) not the chips in the field... Sliders, that is what we used to call the guys riding Harley bikes all the time...they get to a stop light in Hawaii on the old highway, under the new highway (long story...two different highways) and the cooler asphault...that was always protected from the rain and sun...was slick! It was fun to just set on a bench and watch them put the rear brake on and it would skid and smoke and just keep going...like the Energizer bunny...It was cool though if you rode it every day. You could do a burn out fishtail and just keep rolling on the throttle, and the smoke would keep on rolling...even the busses would smoke their tires when skidding to a stop...I kinda' really don't miss it...come to think of it, now. It made stopping wicked awful...and starting out slick and awesome too...all in all...I'm happy to be stateside...
If you remember your high school physics, the coefficient of static friction is significantly greater than the coefficient of dynamic friction. So like rednek426 said, you get a lot more stopping power if you're not skidding. And when you're braking hard, the weight shifts to the front, so the rear brake doesn't grip much, and it's easy to lock up.rednek426 said:
I really like being able to control the two brakes individually. On a car, I have often allowed a rear brake skid to give maximum braking power on the front (for straight line stops only, and I steer the front to keep the rear from coming around). But on a bike, I can let off the rear brake so it doesn't skid, and keep the power on the front.
What I'm just learning about this year is the effect that front braking has on cornering. I've read that Nascar drivers steer their cars with the gas and brake as much as with the steering wheel, and I've started to notice that effect when cornering hard at high speed. Hit the front brake hard and the weight shifts to the front, causing the front tire to dig in and turn harder. Hit the gas and the front tire lifts up, giving a smaller contact surface and less cornering force, making you go straighter. It's pretty scary, but very cool.
What to do about an accidental skid is a whole 'nother book. There's a hundred things to check all at once -- steering angle, leaning angle, rear end movement, dive, traffic in all directions, and God help you if you have a passenger. It's a lot better to not let yourself get into those situations. I know we can't prevent everything, but good anticipation and pretending that the other drivers are trying to be sneaky and deliberately kill you will help with your defensive driving.
Curt
MSF COURSE
Just before summer ends try to take an Advanced MSF course...You want to learn about yourself this is the course. It wouldn't matter if you had a 1200cc or a 250cc and you had months or literally Years of experience. You may be able to adjust your carbs perfectly, and outride a whole group of guys on your favorite road...or think that you know, ar actually do know everything from head bearings to fender bearings...this course is for the rider. You will learn about YOU, and what and how to correct things tha tyou are weak at. It's like better than a class in College or shooting a new handgun or going for a ride in a stock car or what ever it is brand new to you...this is about you and learning about you...IT'S ALL ABOUT YOU! It is an awesome course that is worth every second, and penny that you put into it. CURT our resident math guru, is on the right "TRACK" while trying to explain chassis setup for cornering. It's awesome when you find the setup that works. Just before you get to the corner set up (from out of the tucked in position) and become an airbrake, push the bar in the direction that you want to turn and it will really make the bike dive i the direction that you want to go...while easing off of the brake and pouring on the throttle causing the weight to transfer to the rear wheel.....you can use a little rear brake during any of this time to keep the front end from climbing to high while you are settin it upright coming out of the corner or even all the way out of the corner. You can, depending upon your riding skills actually slide some with the rear tire...not fun if you aren't a seasoned rider, sometimes not even then. You are all asking WHY is ZX-2R going into all this detail..???the next time you get into a quick rainstorm and it has been really dry and the roads become slick, or it has been raining, or you hit a patch of black ice, on an overpass or under a large shaded spot... you will further understand not the bike but yourself and how to manage in a situation that requires precision riding skills and understanding of what to do....Wait till the roofing truck going down the highway looses all 4or 5 aluminum ladders at the same time...and your first thought is getting run over by the cars behind you trying to avoid the ladders................
Just before summer ends try to take an Advanced MSF course...You want to learn about yourself this is the course. It wouldn't matter if you had a 1200cc or a 250cc and you had months or literally Years of experience. You may be able to adjust your carbs perfectly, and outride a whole group of guys on your favorite road...or think that you know, ar actually do know everything from head bearings to fender bearings...this course is for the rider. You will learn about YOU, and what and how to correct things tha tyou are weak at. It's like better than a class in College or shooting a new handgun or going for a ride in a stock car or what ever it is brand new to you...this is about you and learning about you...IT'S ALL ABOUT YOU! It is an awesome course that is worth every second, and penny that you put into it. CURT our resident math guru, is on the right "TRACK" while trying to explain chassis setup for cornering. It's awesome when you find the setup that works. Just before you get to the corner set up (from out of the tucked in position) and become an airbrake, push the bar in the direction that you want to turn and it will really make the bike dive i the direction that you want to go...while easing off of the brake and pouring on the throttle causing the weight to transfer to the rear wheel.....you can use a little rear brake during any of this time to keep the front end from climbing to high while you are settin it upright coming out of the corner or even all the way out of the corner. You can, depending upon your riding skills actually slide some with the rear tire...not fun if you aren't a seasoned rider, sometimes not even then. You are all asking WHY is ZX-2R going into all this detail..???the next time you get into a quick rainstorm and it has been really dry and the roads become slick, or it has been raining, or you hit a patch of black ice, on an overpass or under a large shaded spot... you will further understand not the bike but yourself and how to manage in a situation that requires precision riding skills and understanding of what to do....Wait till the roofing truck going down the highway looses all 4or 5 aluminum ladders at the same time...and your first thought is getting run over by the cars behind you trying to avoid the ladders................
Skidding
I just finished the MSF class a month ago, and they told and showed by means of videos what happens during a skid. They said NEVER let your front wheel lock up, because unless you are seriously skilled and were planning to do it, this will 99% of the time throw you down as the front wheel washes out and you go down on the low side. If the rear wheel locks, they said that once you have locked the rear wheel, to keep it locked until you can stop. Once the rear locks, it will immediately start to slide to the left or right, out of the direction of travel. Then when you release the brake and the rear tire regains grip, it will immediately try to snap back into the direction of travel causing a high side crash. Think about on a bicycle, you can lock the rear brake and still stay up with a bit of skill, but staying up with a locked front brake for more than a sec or so is virtually impossible. Best scenario i suppose would be to keep both from locking, right on the threshold.
I just finished the MSF class a month ago, and they told and showed by means of videos what happens during a skid. They said NEVER let your front wheel lock up, because unless you are seriously skilled and were planning to do it, this will 99% of the time throw you down as the front wheel washes out and you go down on the low side. If the rear wheel locks, they said that once you have locked the rear wheel, to keep it locked until you can stop. Once the rear locks, it will immediately start to slide to the left or right, out of the direction of travel. Then when you release the brake and the rear tire regains grip, it will immediately try to snap back into the direction of travel causing a high side crash. Think about on a bicycle, you can lock the rear brake and still stay up with a bit of skill, but staying up with a locked front brake for more than a sec or so is virtually impossible. Best scenario i suppose would be to keep both from locking, right on the threshold.
If you lock the rear brake while heading in straight line the rear will start to slide around as you have already seen. However, usually your front tire is still pointed straight ahead. If you ride the slide all the way around eventually the handlebars will come to the stop. Here you can no longer hold the wheel pointing straight ahead. At that point you will be thrown off the bike in a high side, because the front tire which still has traction will be forced to suddenly change directions.
Therefore, if in a panic stop you lock the rear while going in straight line let off before it is to late. As long as the rear has only slid out a little ways it should snap back to following the front with out to much trouble. But if you let it slide around to far you have got to be pretty skillful/lucky to keep from high siding off the bike.
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