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Simply put a battery will take what it wants.
unless the regulator is faulty, it will only charge till its topped of the battery(ies) in the circuit, and then stop.
Series or parallel, it makes no difference.
If this did happen fix your cars regulator before driving it again.
 

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The Cruising Gunsmith
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So if the battery was already junk, how can you hurt it?
OK, I'll waste another five minutes (last time):

A "12V" battery has six cells. Under "no charge" the cell voltage of each cell is about 2.1V each, 12.6V total. The charging system pushes a little current into the battery as it operates to keep it "topped off" at 14V.

Lets see.... how can you "hurt" anything charging a "junk" battery?

Well.... with a shorted cwell, now the battery voltage is 10.5V. The alternator/regulator still says the battery has to be 14V and pumps all the current it can into it to try to force it up to 14V (which it can't do because the cell is shorted) so it ends up pumping anywhere from 20 to 50A into the poor battery which can't get up to 14V.

Power dissipationis : P = V x I = 12 X 20 = 240W.

The bike battery will be dissipating 240w inside. Do you know how fast that thing will cook? Apparrently not, since you are asking:

" So if the battery was already junk, how can you hurt it?"


do you see the point, or is the forest lost to you by too many trees?
Yeah, I have a problem comprehending gibberish being burdened by a massive amount of knowledge as to how a charging system actually operates.
 

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The Cruising Gunsmith
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Simply put a battery will take what it wants.
unless the regulator is faulty, it will only charge till its topped of the battery(ies) in the circuit, and then stop.
Series or parallel, it makes no difference.
If this did happen fix your cars regulator before driving it again.
Absolute gibberish. If a battery has a shorted cell, the charging system will read a chrionically low system voltage (because the battery will pull it down) and apply MAX current to the field winding and the alternator will pump maximum current into the battery.

You really should find out how a charging system actually works.
 

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The Cruising Gunsmith
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[QUOTE

I am quite certain they haven't changed since I got my degree in electrical engineering or when I designed the IC control circuit that went into a few zillion Chrysler products and controlled the battery charging system.
Since Chrysler has not sold zillions in total, you prove right there you have no idea what you are talking about.[/QUOTE]

One of us certainly has no idea what he's talking about. Since the 40+ technical articles I've had published in various topologies went through both peer review as well as the millions of eyeballs who read them...

I am quite sure I know which one of us is blowing smoke out his ***.
 

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The Cruising Gunsmith
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... this is why I never comment on anything to do with the electrical system LOL

12 volt power pack it is for me!
I am rolling on the floor..... not only have I designed an IC for a charger system control, for about 15 years my 1970 Duster had a "home built" controller driving the alternator when I got tired of shelling out $50 for the factory ones that kept going out.
:-D

And yet.... somehow, I don't know how a car manages to keep it's battery charged.
 

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Since Chrysler has not sold zillions in total, you prove right there you have no idea what you are talking about.
One of us certainly has no idea what he's talking about. Since the 40+ technical articles I've had published in various topologies went through both peer review as well as the millions of eyeballs who read them...

I am quite sure I know which one of us is blowing smoke out his ***.[/QUOTE]

you should write for the enquirer.............
 

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OK, I'll waste another five minutes (last time):

A "12V" battery has six cells. Under "no charge" the cell voltage of each cell is about 2.1V each, 12.6V total. The charging system pushes a little current into the battery as it operates to keep it "topped off" at 14V.

Lets see.... how can you "hurt" anything charging a "junk" battery?

Well.... with a shorted cwell, now the battery voltage is 10.5V. The alternator/regulator still says the battery has to be 14V and pumps all the current it can into it to try to force it up to 14V (which it can't do because the cell is shorted) so it ends up pumping anywhere from 20 to 50A into the poor battery which can't get up to 14V.

Power dissipationis : P = V x I = 12 X 20 = 240W.

The bike battery will be dissipating 240w inside. Do you know how fast that thing will cook? Apparrently not, since you are asking:

" So if the battery was already junk, how can you hurt it?"


Yeah, I have a problem comprehending gibberish being burdened by a massive amount of knowledge as to how a charging system actually operates.
actually NO , not all 12volt batteries have 6 cells.
do a search on batteries....then try again.
 

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The Cruising Gunsmith
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I'd put money down that 95% of motorcycle batteries have a series of cells. All of mine have.
All lead-acid batteries have six cells. They comprise about 99.999% of the batteries used in such service (car/MC primary cells). Even the so called "gel cell" lead acid batteries have the same basic cell configuration.

The hybrid cars use NiMH (nickel metal hyride) cells for their high voltage battery stacks. As % of total batteries, it is extremely small.
 

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The Cruising Gunsmith
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actually NO , not all 12volt batteries have 6 cells.
do a search on batteries....then try again.
Oh my... not all "12V" batteries have six cells? And, exactly WHERE did I say that ALL 12V batteries have six cells? I didn't... not being a moron. But, this thread is referring to 12V lead acid batteries used in car/MC service. You might want to check the actual thread topic.

All conventional lead acid 12V batteries have six cells, the nominal cell voltage is about 2.1V (not being charged). A Nickel cadmium cell has a full charge cell voltage of 1.4V and a nominal cell V of 1.25, so they would have a ten cell stack to make 12V. Exactly the same for nickel metal hydride.

Rechargeable Lithium Ion has a FC cell V of 4.2V and end-of-life voltage of 3V, so a "12V" Li battery would have three cells stacked up.

FYI, I have published designs for temperature compensated charging circuits for every chemistry listed above. Anything else you want me to make you look foolish about?
 

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Wannabeabigbike Owner
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I give up, too much EXPERTise here. (an EXPERT btw is an old drip under pressure) My last gig was running R&D for a major telephone products co producing battery systems, charging systems, current draw limiters, etc.. Certainly haven't done a zillion anythings. I did get a patent on the last CHARGING/Limiting system though. Easy to look up. But... I admit that here, it all works by magic, all of you are right, and it ain't worth the typing. But if current (yes, the flow of electrons) FORCES its way into anything, you need to cut back on the meds and break out those old textbooks again. Nuff said. They do whatever they do. Mine works fine. Bye Gonna go play in the sand.
 

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Not that I want to get back into this arguement but if the battery in the car is good the altenator will not see a shorted cell in the motorcycle battery.It works the same way when you are putting to batteries in parallel on a diesel truck.your overall voltage will stay the same.I am no engineer just happen to work on trucks for 18 years.
Either way what you describe is going to happen whether you were jump starting a car or bike and in what is the real likelyness of this occuring.

I have seen charging with a battery charger damage circuits when trying to charge with an open battery, but I just don't see that happening when you are jump starting when the good vehicle battery is acting as the power source.
 

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I give up, too much EXPERTise here. (an EXPERT btw is an old drip under pressure) My last gig was running R&D for a major telephone products co producing battery systems, charging systems, current draw limiters, etc.. Certainly haven't done a zillion anythings. I did get a patent on the last CHARGING/Limiting system though. Easy to look up. But... I admit that here, it all works by magic, all of you are right, and it ain't worth the typing. But if current (yes, the flow of electrons) FORCES its way into anything, you need to cut back on the meds and break out those old textbooks again. Nuff said. They do whatever they do. Mine works fine. Bye Gonna go play in the sand.
Thanks for being a voice of reason.
As you and I know if the regulator is not faulty it limits the voltage.
If its faulty it can over charge.
So see if the car used to jump the bike has a bad charging system....also most regulator failures cause UNDER charging, not over charging.

For those who cannot grasp this I chose very simple sites, so as to keep the explanation simple, and not confuse it even more.

Here is a couple quick reads.

The Charging System - Part 2: The Alternator

Automotive Charging Systems -  A Short Course on How They Work
 

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So what happens in a battery if one cell is busted and therefore the battery is only capable of 9-10 volts?

I didn't read anywhere where they talk about two electrical systems together. Maybe I missed it?

I have no idea about any of this jargon but bounty's argument is making more sense to me. If the battery is bad it would make sense that the car's system would think it's low and try to charge it, even though it can't physically accept more than 9-10 volts.

I'm genuinely curious. Sorry kamloops, your arguments so far have been "zillion is not a number therefore you're wrong". So you can see why bounty makes a more convincing case :p
 

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Gear Head
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I'm still curious about one major factor of the argument here.

Everyone's been arguing about voltage....but what about the amperage difference between a motorcycle and a standard car. The average car has a charging system output of 80-200 amps, and I know that bikes just don't run that high.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but it's always been in my experience that too much amperage tends to break things, especially on a bike...but I could be wrong, since my experience with this is from working in a battery/alternator shop for 6 months, nothing fancy or special.
 

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I'm still curious about one major factor of the argument here.

Everyone's been arguing about voltage....but what about the amperage difference between a motorcycle and a standard car. The average car has a charging system output of 80-200 amps, and I know that bikes just don't run that high.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but it's always been in my experience that too much amperage tends to break things, especially on a bike...but I could be wrong, since my experience with this is from working in a battery/alternator shop for 6 months, nothing fancy or special.
on a properly working car you might see 15 amps you may not even see that much at idle until loaded. genrally you will never see more than 75% of amps rated on the altenator at max load. and the only thing I have ever seen with a 200 amp system is an ambulance.
adding another battery in parallel (as in jump starting) would not make the system go to full AMPERAGE.
also if you had a battery putting out 10 volts the car won't start and even if it did the the altenator will not put out a suffecient charge because the battery voltage is too low.
Also what everyone here is failing to amperage is also limited to the size of the cable. the Cable to and from a Car battery is usually 1 0r 2 gauge and trucks can be much larger while your average jumper cable maybe 10 gauge they aren't going to allow for full amperage of the car"s battery to pass through them.
trust me I have melted a set try to use them as a jumper to ground on a truck that had bad ground cables.
In fact I have a dead bike battery here battery if I had access to an amp meter I would hook it up in parrallel and take before and after readings. at the cars altenator. I will see if I can borrow one and post the outcome.
 

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I understand full amperage is not coming into the motorcycle battery from the car.

But I do know the motorcycle battery is only 10-15 amp hours and that 15 amps from a car's electrical system "at idle" could easily burn it up within a few minutes.

Thats as far as my understanding goes on the subject though. Everything else is new to me.
 

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Let me try and explain this one last time.
If jumping a bike/car/truck/ or whatever....it would take faulty regulator to allow more than14.5 volts, and most when they fail, undercharge, not overcharge.
And if you are going with the theory of a weak battery causing it to try to overcharge, then the cars battery would have to be bad as well as the bikes, or else the regulator would see an ok voltage from at least one of them.
as for too much amperage, a battery takes what it wants, and then stops taking more, so the regulator stops sending more.

So for this too happen both the car and bike batteyr have to be bad, as well as the regulator fail in a very uncommon way.
And even then its not likely to hurt it.

So I stand by my previous explanation.

And as a ast comment before i stop looking and responding to this thread.
If the scenario placed before you by bounty held any water, then every time a car say had its lites left on and ran a battery down.
Then was jumped it would read low voltage and fry stuff.
And if say parked on a hill and bump started the car once started would read very low voltage since the battery is dead, and fry itself upon starting.
I ahve seen many jumped and bump started cars....never seen a problem from it though.
Just be sure to not cross the terminals when jumping is all....that gets ugly fast.
 
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