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Discussion Starter #1




Some of it wipes off, but about 7/8th inch square from the top doesnt. it goes down most of the cylinder. Its not very rough and the piston moves up and down fine. Do i need to get the cylinder bored? ugh i'm sick of spending money on this thing.

Any ideas? or any products that can go in the cylinder?


thanks!
 

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Rust isn't the end of the world, Tissan. Not at all. Here are two options I can think of:
1) Do nothing and get as many miles out of it as you can. Just wipe out as much of the rust as you can and leave a nice coat of oil on all of your cylinders before closing her back up.
Did you know that cylinder walls are actually not supposed to be mirror-smooth? They're intentionally scratched with a large drill-bit tool that looks like some heavy-metal toilet brush in a cross-hatching pattern. The rough surface holds a nice thick layer of oil for your piston rings to slide on. That there is rust now only means that the bike has sat for a while without running and that cylinder happened to have valves open for moisture to enter. As long as no large quantity of rust comes off on your finger when you wipe, this option will probably be the best one.

2) Complete expensive rebuild. Will require the removal of the cylinder block so you can use that titanium toilet-scrubber mentioned in #1 to freshen the cross-hatching in your cylinder walls. There's no need to re-bore it, though. As long as your bike wasn't burning a bunch of oil before this teardown and the cylinders are not egg-shaped, just get the cross-hatcher in there and install fresh piston rings.

I personally would opt for #1. That cross-hatching exposes as much surface area as possible of those iron cylinder walls. Exposed surface area is subjecting to oxydation, hence the ferrous-oxide (rust.) As long as the oxidized iron isn't coming off in large clumps, there's no need to remove the cylinder block and buy new piston rings. (And piston ring compressor, and cylinder gasket, and cross-hatch job at the machinist, etc...) I'd be willing to bet money that every bike that has ever sat still over the winter would have at least a little rust in it, but few of us ever engage in the brave internal crusades like you're doing and so remain blissfully unaware of horrible things like rust, pits, carbon-buildup and other forms of metallic cancer.
If you go with #1, the combination of the heat, oil and piston-ring scrubbing will clean the rust off. If you wanted to be paranoid, you could run the bike for a few hundred miles and change the oil.

Don't use any strong or weird cleansers in there either. A little rust is less damaging to the inside of an engine than almost anything corrosive enough to clean it off.

Good luck! Keep us abreast. (And good for you doing this yourself!)
-CCinC
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Thank you Calamarichris!!!! Forums need more people like you :)

anyhow, you said about how as long as not to much comes off with i wipe it with my finger comes off. What wipes off is just a brown residue, i can wipe it all off with a rag (except the 1" spot that doesnt wipe off) but then it comes back when i turn the engine. So what does this mean?
 

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Thanks Tissan. You a mighty nice fella.
Was the bike running when you got it, Tissan? Any other information about it from the original owner?
That is probably a combination of rust and oil-sludge kind of built-up in there, and being drawn up and deposited on the cylinder wall by the piston rings. I would wipe it out as best as you can, complete the rebuild (dousing everything with fresh motoroil before you torque the head back on), start it and ride it, then change the oil and filter within 200-500 miles.
Fresh, hot oil will rinse that **** out of there and changing that oil soon will get it out of the engine. Would it have been better not to have had rust in there? Yes, but going the #2 route has it's scary aspects too. I was complaining to a dragboat racer about the machinist who botched my Superhawk pistons, and he said that almost all machinists stink. He send cylinders and pistons in for machining, specifying specific tolerances, and they are returned with crazily-incorrect measurements. And he said MOST machinists are like this.
So you might put it all back together and find that #3's compression is not so good. But you might also buy new rings and take it into a machinist who might screw it up even worse and you will have terrible compression on more than one cylinder. Or perhaps something even worse. Either way is a gamble, but #1 is less a gamble because at least you won't be investing a ton of money and risking it all on a machinist who doesn't care a whit about your baby. Here's my tale of woe:
http://www.chrisandlisachan.com/superhawk.htm

Best of luck. Keep us abreast of the rebuild and chime in with any questions.
-CCinC
 

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Discussion Starter #5
What do you think about using some wd-40 to get rid of some of the rust. then coating the cylinders with oil?
 

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Probably not cause any problems, but don't get carried away polishing it. And don't use too much WD. If you went nuts and some managed to flow past the piston rings and into your crankcase, it will dilute your oil a little. Nothing major, but not something you want to try to do.
Keep us abreast (or two.)
-CCinC
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Calamarichris said:
Probably not cause any problems, but don't get carried away polishing it. And don't use too much WD. If you went nuts and some managed to flow past the piston rings and into your crankcase, it will dilute your oil a little. Nothing major, but not something you want to try to do.
Keep us abreast (or two.)
-CCinC

Ok cool, a little bit came off but not much. To clarify, should i just put some oil on a rag and wipe it on the cylinder walls before i reassemble it?

Oh and who would have good prices on a headgasket? :grin:
 

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I'm not really sure exactly how much oil. I doused my Superhawk's piston rings and cylinders pretty liberally with oil and when it started up I got a little white smoke for a few seconds. Use a clean, lint-free rag and leave a fairly thick coating on the walls.
Best pricing? Can't help you there. I've been staying loyal to my local dealership for the last 4 years, but that is probably going to change because the parts manager (who's been working there for 13+ years) just called me yesterday to tell me he's quitting. The dealership was bought last year by a "Powersports Corporation" and has steadily been turning into a typical dealership: teenagers with multiple facial-piercings who are only working there the 6 weeks so they can get an employee-discount on the pipe for their g**d***ed dirtbike. :(

"Powersports Corporation" :rolleyes: One of those ridiculous words like "motojournalist."
-CCinC
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Well i got one of my brothers friends to look at it (this man knows anything and everything to do with cars/engines etc. I would trust him to fix anything, honestly.) He said it definitley needs a honeing, and he said i can get the extension for the drill. Hone it a little bit to get rid of the rust, then it's be good to go. Just might burn a lil oil :lol:.

I was looking at these tools (220 grit wetstone honers) at sears for like 20 bucks, what is your take on this?
 

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since your gonna hone it then get a new set of rings.
i take it your gonna remove the cylinder to hone it ?????
if you run a hone in the cylinder and you only do it in a partial area then you are gonna have a tapered cylinder, thats worse than just running the motor and letting the rings remove the slight surface rust and maybe changing your oil after running it for a little bit. thats what i would do if there is no pitting/heavy rust.
good luck
 

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What Qken said. I disagree with your bro's friend. And you WILL have to lift that cylinder block and replace the piston rings and all associated gasketry if you want to hit the cylinder(s) with a hone.
Doing a "partial hone" with the pistons still in the cylinder would be worse than substituting that gritty-orangey Go-Jo handsoap for motoroil.
Unless you've got new information, I stand by my previous Rx.
-CCinC
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Alright guys, i decided not to be cheap and pull the block off and hone the cylinder(s). All i will have to replace is the block gasket and the piston rings right?


Since all the the other cylinders are fine should i just hone one?


Thanks again for all of your help guys!
 

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since your pulling the whole cylinder then have someone with the tools check the diameter. you have to watch your "RING END GAP" and make sure you dont go way too big or you will have a oil user/smoker (just went thru this on a rebuilt motor at work) pull a top ring off your old piston, put it about 1/2" down into the bad cylinder, square it up with the piston (turn piston upside down and push ring down a bit to square it up), check gap in ring, (take your piston size x 3 and x 4 (3 low side,4 high side) EX. 2.670 x 3 = 8.01 (.008") 2.670 x 4 = 10.68 (.011") to get ring end gap needed. (measure 90* from pin)
might just need to run a ball hone thru the cylinders since they will only remove the rust and not actual material) your just looking to get a 45-60 deg hatch pattern.
 

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Rust never sleeps

I hope im not too late. If the bike wasnt smoking before you found the rust, just get some 220 emery cloth and clean the rust spot and surrounding area. Use the cloth as a hone. Dip it in oil and just remove the rust. Put a rag into the bottom of the cylinder atop the piston so as to keep the bore clean. coat it with oil and put it back together. If its not pitted, it will be fine. Honing only breaks the glaze on the cylinder walls created by the rings polishing the wall going up and down. You break the glaze to allow a new set of rings to seat. Rings wont seat on a polished, mirror like surface. So, if your not going to put in new rings, if the bike was'nt smoking before why should you, theres no need to hone. Chances are the rust would have cleaned itself just by running the engine. If the walls are pitted, then the rings might get hung on the rust and crack but you need some pretty heavy pitting to do that. If you really want to hone, then put the piston at bottom dead center and hone where you can. Make sure you clean the cylinder out good, that stone leaves grit and it can get into your crankcase and grind everything it touches.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Knightrider said:
I hope im not too late. If the bike wasnt smoking before you found the rust, just get some 220 emery cloth and clean the rust spot and surrounding area. Use the cloth as a hone. Dip it in oil and just remove the rust. Put a rag into the bottom of the cylinder atop the piston so as to keep the bore clean. coat it with oil and put it back together. If its not pitted, it will be fine. Honing only breaks the glaze on the cylinder walls created by the rings polishing the wall going up and down. You break the glaze to allow a new set of rings to seat. Rings wont seat on a polished, mirror like surface. So, if your not going to put in new rings, if the bike was'nt smoking before why should you, theres no need to hone. Chances are the rust would have cleaned itself just by running the engine. If the walls are pitted, then the rings might get hung on the rust and crack but you need some pretty heavy pitting to do that. If you really want to hone, then put the piston at bottom dead center and hone where you can. Make sure you clean the cylinder out good, that stone leaves grit and it can get into your crankcase and grind everything it touches.
I have already pulled the block, but not purchased anything yet.

I will of course have to repalce the gaskets, but you think that will work? I will just do that instead of replacings the rings/honing
 

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QKENUF4U said:
thats worse than just running the motor and letting the rings remove the slight surface rust and maybe changing your oil after running it for a little bit. thats what i would do if there is no pitting/heavy rust.
good luck
hmm seems i told you to just run it awhile ago. lol :p just replace the gaskets and run it. :grin:
 

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My sentiments exactly.

Hey qkenuf4u
My sentiments exactly. Its just a light coat of dust from moisture. One question, Tissan, How did you know the rust was in there?? We all do it. we look for trouble. Just put it back together and run it like qkenuf4u said and change the oil after running it for a while. One thing. Once you get rust, you will always get rust. when you lay the bike up for any length of time, fog the engine so that oil will coat the cylinder wall while sitting. Cover the exhauste pipe ends to help keep moisture out. Try to keep the bike warm and dry.
 
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