Not really anyone around here to "wanna race" mostly farm trucks, John Deere farm machinery or the few guys on cruisers.

Tim

 

Yes I learned that early in my dirtbike days. With enough experience you just learn at about what speed you can go in each gear and can match the rev's without even thinking about it.

Surprisingly, I don't get too many people trying to race me... I guess people are smart enough to know that there aren't many street cars that can beat a liter bike.

 

Heh, that must be why people try to race my KLR 250 - so they can tell their friends that they beat a motorcycle! Unfortunately, I'm not there to speak up and say, "Yup, that person sure did! They beat my 22 hp KLR - because I let them." and then smile real big :biggrin:

 

The one that cracks me up is the kids that holler "hey mister, can ya pop a wheelie?"
Um..... maybe? But will I? Whaddya, NUTZ?
Does it LOOK like a stunt bike?
Some people always have to try and race a bike, or drive in such a way as to show the "biker" how "tough" or "unintimidated" they are.
Whatever. Get over yourself. I love the guys in the giant 4x4's that try to race you off the light..........
OK..... I got a cruiser, you have an ATV. Neither one of us is set up for racing. I'm not going to try, because I'm fully comfortable with the size of my personal parts. But I'm still gonna chuckle when your weekend rock crawler won't keep up to even normal riding........

 

Haha dude people always try to race me on my KE100 Dual sport. The bike has like 11 hp, yet people have to make it a point that they can beat me. Whats weird is that now that I upgraded to a Virago 250, nobody tries to race me. Maybe the high-pitched sound of my kawi 2 stroke makes it seem fast. Whats fun is to rev your engine and entice them to race. Then when the light turns green sit there for a few seconds as they take off flying and watch a cop pull them over. :lol:

 

I have trouble downshifting too. I only have maybe 60 miles of riding so far, but some of the times I've downshifted to let the engine slow the bike, I've experienced the same as you. My husband suggested that he doesn't use engine braking. He told me to just get a feel for pulling in the clutch and clicking down to first as I coast to the stop. I was also having trouble exiting and entering our driveway, mainly because we have gravel. Slowing way down and shifting to first helps. If the gear is too high and the bike too slow, it bucks. I put a couple tiny dents in the gas tank of my brand new bike that way the other day. She bucked and threw herself down like my two year old daughter.

 

A suggestion for people getting used to downshifting on the bikes is to let the clutch out slowly at first to see how hard it is making the engine rev before fully releasing the lever. Dumping the clutch when downshifting can lead to wheel lockup or wheel hop (as noted in the orginal post). This can be dangerous if you are in a curve or if the rear wheel hooks up out of alignment.

 

A suggestion for people getting used to downshifting on the bikes is to let the clutch out slowly at first to see how hard it is making the engine rev before fully releasing the lever. Dumping the clutch when downshifting can lead to wheel lockup or wheel hop (as noted in the orginal post). This can be dangerous if you are in a curve or if the rear wheel hooks up out of alignment.

It is dangerous, period. If you're not racing there's really no reason to be doing it. As a rider you should remove as many risks as are in your control, why not remove that one?

Just my humble opinion.

 

yeah i remember years ago a guy in a porshe 911 thinking he was hot **** whipping up on my brother on his ex250 untill i arrived on the scene at next light on my 1170 and proceeded to smoke him by 2 blocks,waited for him to catch up and whipped him again! hehehe

 

I've had a similar experience with kids asking me to pop a wheelie. Except I was at the junction of a T crossing taking a downhill left turn in 1st gear!! (think up and taking a left when looking at the "T") All I could think was how, where, and why?? LOL.

The one that cracks me up is the kids that holler "hey mister, can ya pop a wheelie?"
Um..... maybe? But will I? Whaddya, NUTZ?
Does it LOOK like a stunt bike?
Some people always have to try and race a bike, or drive in such a way as to show the "biker" how "tough" or "unintimidated" they are.
Whatever. Get over yourself. I love the guys in the giant 4x4's that try to race you off the light..........
OK..... I got a cruiser, you have an ATV. Neither one of us is set up for racing. I'm not going to try, because I'm fully comfortable with the size of my personal parts. But I'm still gonna chuckle when your weekend rock crawler won't keep up to even normal riding........

 

Not one person has tried racing me except a couple buddies that have bikes. The most I get are the kids in civics with fart pipes who think theirs is louder than mine and wanna rev it at me.

 

I am finding myself doing the same thing to often coming to a stop to fast downshifting and locking up the rear wheel to the point I am sliding. Last weekend on a ride did It so bad coming down a hill with a stop at the bottom I nearly thought I was going to lose it from the back tire skidding. I just need to slowwwww it down sooner!

 

That's funny man when you menchioned kids in honda civics with the fart pipes. I only race sport bikes on the racetrack, but the other day that kid wanted to impress his girlfried twice on the redligth. 3rd time I blow some smoke in their face without even hitting it too hard. At the next light he didn't wanna pull right next to me ...Just wanted the kid to grove up ...........

 

Hopefully I'm reading these posts correctly and the question being asked is how to perform your downshifting in such a manner to avoid inadvertantly sliding the rear tire. If not, many sorries.

The answer is to rev match. While you have the clutch pulled in, blip the throttle to raise engine rpm's enough to counteract the lower gear ratio. The goal is to get a smooth transition when you let the clutch out again. Slowly rolling the throttle on while letting the clutch lever out can often be "too little too late." And its tough on your transmission, not to mention your chain. If you are going to use engine compression to slow the bike down, first make a smooth transition to the lower gear then back off on the throttle.

Actually, slowing down by downshifting is not too good. Braking is how you slow a bike down. (The exception here is when you are trying to control your speed going down a hill) The reason you downshift when slowing for a corner is so that the engine is in the fat area of the powerband when you decide to get on the throttle again. Since motorcycles have sequential gearshifts, unlike a manual shift car with a H gate you cannot easily skip gears while downshifting, hence a lot of riders downshift in steps leading up to a turn. Stepping down gear by gear also lets you judge whether or not you are in the proper gear for the turn. Some talented riders are actually able to judge which gear they need to be in and can click the shift lever the requisite number of times, but I guess I'm just not talented. Every time I try that I wind up in a false neutral, which "creates a vacuum" when you are trying to turn. So I downshift step by step. The same goes for the "manumatic" car I just got. Since its a sequential shift I can't jump from, say fourth to second w/o going through third. I suppose if I hit the gearshift fast enough I could perform the jump, but that would really really hard on the tranny and driveline, methinks.

IIRC, during the MSF course when they teach you to do the panic stop they make a point of making you do all of your stopping with the brakes, but to ensure you have downshifted to first gear so that you can get going again from your stopped position, not fumbling around with the gearshift while some cell phone talking cager is about to run you down. Same concept when approaching a corner. Use the brakes to slow down to cornering speed, and downshift to be in the proper gear to smoothly roll on the throttle to load the rear contact patch. Just that since you are not coming to a complete stop, no need to go all the down to first (unless its a really tight corner).

As I posted on a similar thread here, a good book to read is Keith Code's "A Twist of the Wrist." Lots of good info in there.

 

Actually, back then, when I was downshifting too early, I was coming to a complete stop. Either way, that was on the KLR 250 I had, not the KLE650 in my avatar, and the best way to avoid it is definitely with practice. You're completely right though, brakes are for stopping.
I've heard differently about downshifting to slow down - I've heard it was the preferred method, both from the Connecticut rider's manual and at the MSF safety course (where I actually learned how to ride). It really does take practice, though, to avoid making the rear tire skid.

 

I had a little group of 12/13 year old kids invoke me to do a wheelie once while I was rolling down the street... only reason I didn't oblige is coz I don't know how

As for the downshifting, I agree 100% with Bill. Use your brakes to slow down, not engine braking and downshifting. You have witnessed first hand what the dangers can be.

Get on the brakes, downshift while you are braking, but do not downshift without braking.

 

Heh - when people ask me if I can do a wheelie, I say, "yes". Very deadpan. Nothing else. Leaves 'em dumbfounded. I can, but what's the point? I live in New York City and it's just plain stupid.

I used to chirp up my back end - it just takes practice on your bike to "feel" where you should be at.

 

As far as I can tell, this MSF manual says nothing about downshifting to slow a bike.
http://www.msf-usa.org/downloads/Motorcycle_Operator_Manual.pdf

The closest it comes is in the shifting gears section, to wit, "Shift down through the gears with the clutch AS (emphasis mine) you slow or stop. Remain in first gear while you are stopped so that you can move out quickly if you need to." That's what I do. Step down through the gears as I slow with the brakes. You always want to be in the proper gear to roll on the throttle for your next operation, be that entering a turn or seeing the light at the intersection turn from red to green while you're still in the process of slowing down.

Everything about riding a motorcycle well has to do with smoothness. Its a delicate balance of opposing forces. Overdo one input, you upset this balance, and down you go. Dumping the clutch without rev matching during a downshift is just about the roughest thing you can do on a bike. Even if you slowly let the clutch out, if your rpm's have fallen far enough while you had the engine disengaged from the transmission, its going to be a rough transition.

When its all said and done, though, I know I'm probably not going to change anyone's mind about whether or not to slow via downshifting. So, let me conclude with this. If you want to downshift to slow, go right on ahead. But, may I suggest that if you learn how to rev match while the engine is disengaged, you'll be a lot smoother and avoid chirping/sliding your rear tire while downshifting.

 

I remeber when I just started I was kinda goigng thru all the things you can "safely" explore on your bike. I remember that one time I was coming to a major intersection and needed to turn R, I downshifted to a lower gear even I already was at higher RPM (**** newbie) @#$%^&* :shock: my rear tire started skidding and I was able to pull that clutch and take the power of the engine.
I see some people talking about wheelies. I see guys popin up all the time. When people are asking me to pull the wheelie I just ignore them because I don't want to learn and get into it. Per my decission you either stunt or ride. Im more into highspeed, tracks and kneedraging then stunting.

 

Downshifting smoothly is one of the skills that should be learned by every rider. Opinions vary as to whether or not you should use downshifting as a braking method, but the ability to do so will make you a much better rider.

The easiest way to learn to downshift is to pay attention when you upshift. For those equipped with a tachometer, simply notice the RPM "split" when upshifting. For example if you run up to 6000 rpm in first gear, shift to second and the rpm drops to 5000 then you know you have a 1000 rpm drop.(this is just an example, every bike will have a different split and yes, I know, not everyone has a bike that you shift at 6000 rpm) When you downshift from 2nd at 5000 rpm without touching the throttle during the shift, it will engage 1st at 6000 rpm.

Learning to judge rpm, groundspeed and gear selection takes practice as does every other skill required for riding. Without lecturing anyone I have to say that being in the correct gear ALL the time is as important as wearing all your safety gear.

 

I've also learned that when I'm dressed brightly and wear a full-face helmet, everyone wants to race me! Or so it seems. Let's see, so far, a woman in a '98 Dodge Neon sedan had to prove she was faster than my 22hp KLR 250, and someone in a '91 or '92 Chevy Blazer 4-door had to prove that he was faster than my little KLR. Does anyone else experience this when they're out riding?[/QUOTE]


People just want to see a rider pull on the throttle and wheelie. I figured if they are trying to see me do something on a bike then they are not paying attention to the road and might put me in jeopardy.

At least they are seeing you, but I guess their are drawbacks to everything.

 

Since taking the MSF course three years ago, I've taken their instruction to heart and avoid downshifting as a method of slowing. Yes, I've chirped the rear wheel and it's a surprise when it happens. Using engine braking on a bike on the street is not as important as with a loaded grain truck going downhill, for example.

The gearing on my SR is such that when I take a turn, usually around 10-15 MPH I'm guessing, that second gear is perfect for accelerating away. By knowing which gear I'm in from the tach/speedo correlation, I know just how many times to down click and be in second, make the turn, let out the clutch and begin accelerating about halfway through the turn.

Every bike is a bit different, so practice, practice, practice!

Never do a wheelie or anything stupid on a dare. Let the ignoramous setting the dare figure out how to do it himself and ride away.

 

Opinions vary as to whether or not you should use downshifting as a braking method, but the ability to do so will make you a much better rider.QUOTE]

I'm taking a motorcycle course here in Canada - I think it may be different than the US one you all refer to. Mine starts June 6. Thanks for the link to your manual!

But in the mean time I gotta ask - I've ridden my new bike a whole whopping 1,200 km, and in the city, there's less time to come to a halt slowly and I rely on the brake more, but I find when I'm on the highways, with less traffic and more time, I find it as simple to gear down my 900 as my Passat (which is a standard transmission as well). If you ease off the throttle, she slows and you can gear down into 4th at around 75 k or so - I release the clutch slowly (no popping!) while giving it some gas - just like in the car - and it seems a very safe way of slowing until you're in 3rd or 2nd and nearing the stop when I then brake.

Am I doing this wrong? I don't want to get to my class with a bunch of bad habits ingrained already! It just seemed natural after my standard transmission car.

 

Opinions vary as to whether or not you should use downshifting as a braking method, but the ability to do so will make you a much better rider.QUOTE]

I'm taking a motorcycle course here in Canada - I think it may be different than the US one you all refer to. Mine starts June 6. Thanks for the link to your manual!

But in the mean time I gotta ask - I've ridden my new bike a whole whopping 1,200 km, and in the city, there's less time to come to a halt slowly and I rely on the brake more, but I find when I'm on the highways, with less traffic and more time, I find it as simple to gear down my 900 as my Passat (which is a standard transmission as well). If you ease off the throttle, she slows and you can gear down into 4th at around 75 k or so - I release the clutch slowly (no popping!) while giving it some gas - just like in the car - and it seems a very safe way of slowing until you're in 3rd or 2nd and nearing the stop when I then brake.

Am I doing this wrong? I don't want to get to my class with a bunch of bad habits ingrained already! It just seemed natural after my standard transmission car.

In my opinion you are doing it correctly. Downshifting to slow IS braking, you are simply using a different mechanical device to control the speed of the rear wheel. At any given time you have X amount of traction available to the rear wheel. it matters not a whit which method you use to slow the bike, you are cutting into that traction pie. Learning to control the engine for braking is no different than learning to control the brake lever, it is a necessary skill.

Always keep in mind though that over 80 percent of your available stopping power will be on your front tire and the only way to access this power is the use of the front brake lever.

 

Slowing down vs stopping

Opinions vary as to whether or not you should use downshifting as a braking method, but the ability to do so will make you a much better rider.QUOTE]

If you ease off the throttle, she slows and you can gear down into 4th at around 75 k or so - I release the clutch slowly (no popping!) while giving it some gas - just like in the car - and it seems a very safe way of slowing until you're in 3rd or 2nd and nearing the stop when I then brake.

Gabel, it sounds to me like you're just slowing down. When you're on the highway, when you roll off the throttle, the bike will slow very quickly, and you'll need to gear down, just as if you needed to down shift if you were breaking. I think the difference here is actually down shifting to slow the bike (roll off, clutch, down shift - no waiting for the bike to slow), which, when you do that, you'll notice the bike revving pretty high - you probably won't get that on the highway as much.

Another thing to consider is that most sport bikes are geared so that you can be on the highway in 4th, generally (higher rpms, obviously) - sometimes I don't even need 6th gear on my Ducati unless I'm flying (usually too much traffic around here for that). On my Vulcan 500, well, that's a different story, although, I'm usually pretty comfortable in 5th, 6th is usually needed when the roads are clear.

Hellbent - I agree with you that knowing your bike intimately and understanding every aspect of it's performance and how to handle those aspects will make you a better rider, including knowing how to down shift to control speed - sometimes it's the best thing in an emergency.